Susan
More to marketing. Welcome to more to marketing, a podcast on marketing, product and everything in between. I’m your host Susan, and I have a very special guest from Macquarie Uni with me today to talk all things woke. I find this subject really interesting. I want to learn more about it. I’ve been hearing so much in the media about this and I don’t know enough. About it, so I want to introduce you to Doctor Abas. He is one of the foremost experts on work. He has literally in the last couple of weeks published a book called Work brand from selling products to fixing societies, deep issues and it is available on Amazon right now for you to purchase as well. But I really want to hear from him about his story. Why he’s come about with talking about work. He is a specialist in this area as well as CX, which is how I’ve gotten to. Know doctor Abbas. But Doctor Bass tells a bit about you and what you do at the university.
Dr Abas
Cool. Cool. Thank you so much for having me. And thanks for the kind introduction. So I have been doing this research on walking Ness and prior to that. Brand, purpose, purposefulness. Branding. For a couple of years or a few years and but since 2018, perhaps. After the Dream Crazy campaign by Nike. And then followed up by Gillette. Perhaps the infamous campaign of the best man can be. I really. Got interested in in this topic and started reading the comments and the dynamics of, you know, responses to. Such controversial to some extent how seriously marketing campaigns. In the past we have had. Other approaches to social impact brands showing their commitment to social issues and, you know, societal issues and we call it corporate social responsibility, CSR. But there are a lot of, you know, criticism towards. So which the main criticism has always been in the past 5-10 years that. An organisation can have a CSR department that will do all the good things, but the rest of the organisation will continue doing all the bad things. You know what I mean? So technically it is not a very authentic practise if you collaborate with an NGO.
Dr Abas
In Africa or you collaborate with UNESCO, for example. But still child labour is one of the pain points of your you know production line that is not really authentic. Then brands started moving into purposefulness. How to integrate these values, human values, social values. In their practises in their recruitment, in their trainings, in their products, to some extent in the ad campaigns, avoiding desperate sales advertising messages and trying to kind of celebrate life to some extent. But I guess brands always are looking for ways to be noticed to kind of, you know, get the attention of the audience and also be part of the boss, be part of the country, not country, but be part of the conversation.
Susan
Hmm.
Dr Abas
But they realise that. Purposefulness is kind of cool. What it is kind of kind of slow cooked back burner approach. It requires like 10 years of work to be able to then claim that you have been practising.
Susan
That long tail effect.
Dr Abas
Then. Yeah, exactly. And then they they found the workless identifying parts, societal issues that the society is talking about, we call it consumer tension areas. You know, I mean those type of conversations that that are trendy. And mostly are built on social movements such as Black Lives Matter movement or me too. Movement. But. That kind of higher purpose would give them relevance. You know what I mean? For today. And then they started injecting those topics of work topics in their campaigns. And then he picked up since 2020, after the killing of George Floyd. And then the dynamic on daily basis is changing? Though so technically one of the chapters of the book is that the journey from CSO to purposefulness to Wokeness, which is the most controversial on this end of this spectrum versus CSR, which is super safe, something for sugar coating the things that organisations were doing.
Susan
Yes, now it’s it’s really interesting because a lot of businesses just jump straight into those trending topics, don’t they not understanding what it actually means to be part of that potential movement or what that group or organisation is going to feel about it.
Dr Abas
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Susan
And I and I feel there’s probably a lot of organisations that aren’t doing it well and really don’t understand the purpose. Of that investment that you need to do because because as you said, it’s.
Exactly.
Susan
You can’t just have one area of the organisation doing it well and the rest of it just being hidden behind the scenes. It needs to be that authentic piece where everyone’s involved.
Dr Abas
Yes, 100%. So perhaps I can refer back to another chapter of the book. I hope it won’t sound as of as if I’m promoting the book, but. For confusion is something that brands really need to think about. What is your vision for participating in this? Hot topics, right? Otherwise they will be accused of Bandwagoning. You know what I mean? Jumping in the bandwagon and. Trying to kind of benefit from social currency, which is that conversation, right, so. As you perfectly mentioned, I always say companies and brands have more than 100 years of experience launching products. But they don’t even have two years of experience in, you know, launching a social product. You know what I mean? From commercial brand, so. So we see these kind of not really well thought through kind of campaigns, very limited narrow view and parachuting into an issue.
Susan
Hmm.
Dr Abas
Try to and then try to offer a solution without even being able to identify the problem. They try to offer a solution so the same mindset that perhaps they are using for launching a product. Now, technically there you’re borrowing the same knowledge to launch in a social concept, so that is the biggest challenge.
Susan
I think I think one of the things that I’ve seen a lot of and I don’t think organisations necessarily doing it very well, is rainbowing everything. I I’ve just decided that I’m going to get onto the rainbow bandwagon and rainbow everything that I have, where if it’s my logo, my social media, whatever it might be, but not actually participate or or not having that engagement within their own organisation for their inclusiveness.
Yeah. Perfect.
Dr Abas
Exactly. I think we, we call it also in general washing. It can be rainbow washing, it can be. She washing it can be work washing. You know what I mean? Green washing and yeah, the the idea is that as you perfectly mentioned, you’re not practising. You’re just virtue signalling. Or at best you are promising something we without looking at our history whether we have done it in the past.
Yes.
Dr Abas
Sometimes brands have done quite the opposite, you know. What? I mean, for example, Gillette was trying to fight against toxic masculinity, but people were pointing at Gillette that hey, have you checked your own previous ad campaigns, how you were promoting masculinity? You know what? I.
Hmm.
Dr Abas
Mean. Yeah, so.
Susan
Exactly. And I think that’s one thing that some of the brands out there like Unilever, dove, they’ve actually been changing some of the views of, say, women stereotypically instead of just having those beautiful models, they’re one of the very first, if not the first, organisation out there to put real people out there. In their underwear as part of in all shapes and sizes, colours, ages, you name it, and they’re continuing to do that now. So for for me, that’s one of the brands that really is living and breathing that we are going to stand behind that all women are the same in the sense that we love every woman.
Dr Abas
Yeah, exactly. So that that the. Real Beauty campaign is a pure example of brand purpose perhaps, which is not divisive, which is applicable pretty much to everyone and it is about changing the mindset. It is not a controversial topic with people with different political ideologies. Kind of agreeing or disagreeing. So this is something that everyone, regardless of their background, might struggle with. You know what I mean? So, so that. So that’s an excellent case with long lasting impact. Right. But it.
Exactly.
Dr Abas
It takes time. Chobani, perhaps, is another great example of a brand that practises purposefulness by sharing the wealth of the company, but with, you know, employees, 10% goes to employees, shared kind of economy business model or they have incubator. To kind of help asylum seekers, for example, or young entrepreneurs, you know what I mean? Because the founder is, yeah, the the founder is an immigrant from Turkey. So that is a nice connection between the story of the.
Susan
Because of course it’s.
Dr Abas
Business and the the core purpose that they are focusing on, it is not about how tasty or our yoghurts. You know what I mean? Yeah, it is about those higher purpose human values and these type of topics tend to. Have the support of people with different backgrounds, but as soon as you kind of. Stopped work, you know, moving into controversial topics. You it becomes super crucial to adopt A tone that is not because the challenge is sometimes most of the time we we want to support one group, but we technically what we do, we are attacking another group.
Susan
Yeah, yeah. You’re going to have that fine line of how how can I support? Something, but not alienate my other group that are also interested in my product or. Service.
Dr Abas
Exactly. Yeah. So. Lecturing the society or being becoming moral lecturer. These are the things that have been really the pain points of brands getting engaged in the work movement and that’s why we here get woke, go broke.
Susan
Yeah, well, that’s actually really good saying get get work all broke. Have you have you come across within part of your research example of work done well where a brand has really been authentic and been able to bring in a society issue that’s brought in the right community but also done the right thing. By the business as well.
No.
Dr Abas
That’s a very good question. I believe at this stage we don’t have. Such campaign I can talk about the dream crazy campaign, but as you know, it was divisive people putting their shoes on for selling their shoes off fire, removing the logo from their socks. So maybe to some people that was the best example of a walk campaign. But it to me. It was. And underproductive suboptimal outcome because you know, alienating. Or hurting some people. You know what I mean? And at the same time, focusing heavily on achievement. If you listen to the the narrative, it says you need not only the best, but best of the best. So this. Perfectioning the. Some communities, you know what I mean? And at the same time, being divisive. Has been really a a main challenge, so there are many examples that I have tried but I don’t think there is. At this age, kind of a best example of doing it well, I think Adidas is trying. Adidas is learning a lot from what Nokia is doing. They are they are trying and it is a progress. It is not a one off that you launch a campaign and everyone so it’s amazing. It is a a process to win back to, to remove the confusion and to boost the support. But so far, mostly brands are focusing. On. Those who are supporting these moves rather than try to have a dialogue with those who are kind of, for example, anti war.
Susan
And that’s one of the things that’s probably missing is that. Connection piece. To to have that connection to actually understand the shifting movements that would happen as well, because as you said, it’s not just a one or one off campaign. Things are going to change and evolve over time depending on what matter it is that people are socially involved. Within whether it is a black life matter, a me too, or even a potential like Ukrainian situation for example, there everything is always moving and changing.
Dr Abas
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Susan
And that’s and that’s where brands will need to have their fingers on the pulse as well to understand do do I hold that campaign now, they might have put millions of dollars into something, but it’s like, you know what? It’s not right. It’s gonna not have the right resonance that it it should have that’s hold back.
Dr Abas
Yes. 100 percent, 100% so a good example of that would be because it sometimes. The examples that I have aren’t just a marketing campaign, but for example a product launch. That was pulled, for example, Nike was planning to launch a A shoe line with the Betsy Ross flag on the shoe, but they they discontinued. They said we won’t be launching this. It was valued at I I believe 6 billion or maybe less than that.
Susan
Ohh yes.
Dr Abas
But after calling Kaepernick, the person who they featured and kind of championed in their dream crazy campaign after he tweeted that this has racism connotations, they stopped it. The recent one is Adidas again. It seems that sneaker brands are really, you know, into this because perhaps because of their connection to NBA. So they they.
Susan
Yeah, their their history definitely with child labour would mean that they would want to to to be looking at.
Yes.
Susan
Not eradicating that past, but. Working towards building a a better, sustainable future and helping those communities.
Dr Abas
Exactly. Exactly. And so they. After Kanye West’s, you know, hate speech few months. Ago. They Adidas also announced that they they won’t be selling easy shoes anymore. And so. But whether this move was received well by the audience. I don’t think so. It was a clear it’s a clear positive because those. Opposers said that you know, why did you wait two weeks? Why did you wait so that that element of expectation is always there? How fast are you in responding? Whether that is a passive approach to just protect yourself or not. But yeah, so brands, that’s why that that’s another concept that.
Susan
Yeah.
Dr Abas
The I book in the book I refer to it as a book sacrifice. So is it just, you know, a a statement you post on your Twitter account or no, you just do something with impact with the return with substance. You know what I mean? Even for example, if someone says I am going to hire 30% of my future employees will be from black communities. This is not sacrifice. This is your practise. This is your, you know, I mean obligations it it’s a win win. You know you need to employ people.
Susan
It diversify.
Dr Abas
Right. Yeah, exactly. But if they say we won’t be selling these. In a shoes, for example, and it is valued at 1:00. Billion dollar headache. That is, that has that the concept of sacrifice.
Susan
It doesn’t. I I suppose part of what I’m hearing here is organisations have a couple of different ways to be involved in work in the right way and that could be addressing something they’re currently doing that is perceived as not correct in society, whereas it’s child labour or not paying people right. Not using the right materials, whereas there’s also this future state of what do I develop? Create. It and bring to market that can elevate or help society in a way to solve a problem.
Dr Abas
Exactly, exactly. So that is the. Major homework for brands to kind of think about. What type of? Based on their offerings, what type of products and service do they? They are investing in that can enable the society, you know what I mean? And that is still. The missing part because mostly the focus has been on campaigns on messaging rather than, you know, long term. A product that if I buy it, it is not just a charitable. This I benefit from it as a customer and it is beneficial for someone else you know. What I mean?
Susan
Yeah, yeah. One of the things that I personally want to see more of is the removal of plastic in the oceans and it’s being used for things. So I have loved watching different types of products come to market, whether it’s shoes being made out of the plastic. I know some of the big brands are starting to do that or releasing. Like 80 or 100% of it. It’s made out of plastic. One of the ones I thought was really beautiful is when I was having my twin boys, I was looking into all different products and one of the ones I could actually buy was a lady was trying to get funding to make beautiful little bath toys out of plastic from the ocean, 100% from the ocean. Pain. And I just thought, not not as controversial as some of the other topics, but still environmental the plastic out there. How to solve that problem? Yeah, she was. She was trying to solve it as well as give something beautiful that you could then use. And and this product was absolutely gorgeous as well.
So.
Susan
So, and that’s something I personally would love to see more of things that are more meaningful and purposeful that don’t just help me but help a greater cause to make me have that warm and fuzzy feeling.
Dr Abas
Exactly. You’re spot on. And at the same time, we still see approaching the brands that. They also try to kind of. Put profit. 1st and then we have the greenwashing concept and there was a recent A Triple C report on this that many brands were making, you know, false claims or making empty promises. So apparently most of these small businesses or startups. That they they are doing more authentic work than some of these major brands. As more like a a sales tactic or strategy, perhaps so. The damage is important to be considered by by brands. Obviously when they’re making these decisions.
Susan
Definitely, definitely. And and again, to your point, it comes down to be authentic, the authenticity of everything as well. You’ve got to make sure that you, you live and breathe what you say you’re going to do and it resonates through your whole organisation and some of the those big pitfalls that you’ve identified as well and shared is. That people are jumping onto topics not understanding or researching and not realising this is long term. It’s not a short term strategy. Yeah. Just going into these topics, which is why people need to read your book, is to understand that this is long term. This is strategy, this is 510 year planning to make sure it’s done right and it’s in the core of everything. You do because you’ve got to bring it into your values, and your mission statements as well.
Dr Abas
Absolutely, yes, couldn’t agree more on. The point that it is if a brand wants to show real commitment, which I personally believe.
Dr Abas
They should, and they can. So if there are two camps of parts that one says brands should really focus on their products and they shouldn’t be worried about these issues versus another group that say that would say brands need to play their role. I. I think apply to the group that thinks brands have a responsibility to and shift the investment towards. You know these topics. So personally if my next iPhone. Is going to go from three cameras at the back of that Smart 124. I would prefer that investment to go to something else. I’m happy with three cameras in my small, you know, I mean, so incremental improvement in products with no impact. That investment should go to something. And so I think we need to be.
Dr Abas
It’s about the patient with brands. They’re taking baby steps and we should see this as a process as a long term commitment and of course, and they have made many mistakes, but are they learning from those mistakes and are they kind of improving it? If yes, there is great value back. To the community and everyone will be benefit, you know. I. Mean. So yeah, I think a major commitment by brand is to see this as to have a vision and see this as a long term planning doing different things, not just a campaign. All the things that support each other and offers.
Susan
Yes.
Dr Abas
This ecosystem and the master plan of. Their social responsibility.
Susan
Exactly. And extending that out to involve all of their team members. So that all their organisation lives and breathes. Because I think that makes a huge difference when you have that purpose as well as an employee.
Dr Abas
100% equally important when? When you communicate the purpose in your messaging that you are purposeful but inside the organisation people go. I don’t think so. You know you know, so that internal purposefulness, inclusion and genuine diversity not tick box. Bike sticking approach. You know what I mean? Yeah, but these are the things that we should learn rather than being cynical and being kind of feeling let down, you know, I mean, we need to, you know, just try to learn from these practises and the response.
Susan
Exactly. Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing all this fabulous wisdom and learnings. I’ve learned so much. I really do appreciate your time. As you know, I’ve got a final question for.
You.
Susan
Now if you could be any brand at all, that represents yourself, what would it be and why?
Dr Abas
That’s a very interesting question. I.
Susan
Can be more than one.
Dr Abas
Have more than one, yeah. I need to really. I think to be honest though. There are some typical examples like I don’t know. It’s interesting, I wanted to say Nike, but I’m not a Nike customer as much myself, you know, I mean. But I like what they are doing so that there are connections in different levels, connections in terms of product and connection in terms of the brand image and their mindset. I guess I would go with Ben and Jerry’s.
M.
Susan
That makes sense, yeah.
Dr Abas
Ice cream.
Susan
Yum. What flavour?
Dr Abas
So they they have a very interesting flavours, diversity, flavours, right, they, they, they.
Susan
I love it. I love it.
Dr Abas
They are playing a very interesting game and they seem to be very genuine in what they do. Sometimes they have also done some some controversial, you know. Things like not selling ice cream in occupied Palestinian territories, which I I don’t think that was the best move, but the they they seem to be focusing on a number of different issues and it is well beyond. Screen. So I think, yeah, Ben, anger is not because of the functional product that the taste of the ice cream, but because of that symbolic and abstract meaning that they communicate. Yeah, maybe I would go with them.
Susan
Yep. Fantastic. Thank you. I love that answer. Now you’re wanting me to go get? Some ice cream.
Dr Abas
It is 30° something here I guess in Sydney. So.
So so.
Susan
Exactly, exactly. Is there anything finally you’d like to just touch on about localism? Just before I wrap up.
Dr Abas
Thank you so much again for the chat. I think that was an interesting conversation at my end. I learned a lot too. And you had some very interesting questions. And I think I’m, as I said, perhaps my message in this book and in my research is to to encourage everyone. To be patient. With brands? Because otherwise, if if brands backflip to. To their like doing what they were doing for the past century. It is a missed opportunity, you know, I mean, we should hold them accountable for what they are promising. But we should still be very hopeful because of their. However, they can be the agent of change.
Susan
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Doctor Abas, I really appreciate this. Now everybody. His book is available. It’s just been out only for two weeks now. It’s available on Amazon. Work brand from selling products to fixing societies. Deep issues. Get your copy now. It is a fantastic read. Thank you again so much. Doctor Abas, I’ve appreciate your time. Thank you everyone for listening to this podcast on water marketing. And don’t forget to click. I want to listen to more so you can hear some more fabulous podcasts in. The future? More to marketing.
