More 2 Marketing

Susan
More to marketing. Welcome to more to marketing. The podcast explores marketing, product and everything in between. I’m your host, Susan, and today we’re going to be discussing insights in business. I’ve brought along a special guest to help us understand the importance of insights. I would like to welcome Sean. Throughout his career. Shawn has used the benefits of insights to lead and grow his portfolio. His honest skills and he actually provides a view as to why insights are so important for us, for product and marketing for today. Now, Sean, I’d love to hear more about you. So let’s hand it over to you can. Tell us a bit about you.
Shawn
Susan, firstly, thank you very much for having on the podcast. I have listened to a few episodes recently. I was very impressed. So thank you for having me on.
Susan
Thank. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Shawn
Maybe as a as a bit of an overview. I’ve spent the last 14 years in one of our nation’s largest telecommunications companies, I’ve. Had the privilege. Of working in a number of really great. Roles a lot. Of great people in, you know, businesses all across the organisation in a number of different functions. I’ve been a people leader, been specialist contributor. I’ve worked in commercial evaluation and I’ve worked in product management planning, product strategy, B2B marketing, marcoms transformation. It’s probably about. In my current.
Susan
Bit bit of everything in strategy really.
Shawn
Is it is rather diverse. In my current role, where a few different hats I run, a team that has kind of three distinct roots, I have a product strategy team. Where I have. A small team of strategy professionals who help you know, deliver bespoke kind of portfolio market and technology strategic reviews, board papers. They also run, you know, kind. Of planning or or. Pseudo transformational initiatives for the product team.
Shawn
I I run a team as well that has performance remix so they drive, you know, performance insights and to you know evaluation for things in the product team and have platforms team who also helped drive and deliver product you know platform development projects to help improve exx etcetera. So. Uhm. Maybe is a is a good segue into the topic today. I guess in all of my roles, you know even going going back to commercial evaluation, I’ve always been a passionate advocate and also a student of insights, both internal within the business and external to the business. So I I guess I’m what you would call maybe an insight. Purist. But as the years have gone on, you know I’ve also tried to fall pragmatic views about, you know, where and how you get inside. It doesn’t always need to be polished. Curated research papers, you know, insights can be as good as getting really good feedback from from your frontline, from from. Salespeople. So see you.
Susan
Totally agree and from your background as well, you’re definitely an expert to be able to talk about different types of insights, I suppose. Let’s let’s take a step. Back and what? Are insights and what do we use them for?
Shawn
Look, I’m sure. There’s a a really great definition somewhere, and I’m sure if you’ve asked people you know, like I work with people for whom insights is is, you know, their bread and butter and the job, my perspective, I think insights certainly you delineate it from data, but I think you always need data well. Usually you need harder to to establish your credible insights as well. So to answer your question, I think for me insight is anything that helps me or helps the business better understand customer market competitive umm the performance of the business or the strengths and weaknesses of the business as well as well as the opportunities and threats that are out there in the market. And and I think insight. In my experience, can come in in a variety of different formats. You know you can have everything ranging from customer feedback from, you know, interviews, surveys, postern, surveys, point surveys. You can have trending data about revenue costs or all kinds of things. You know call volume. Rooms you can have, you know, deep customer sentimental research about attitudes, decision making, you know about their perception of brand, all that kind of stuff. And you know, those ones are usually done by more detailed curated surveys and then data crunching which you know typically. Can come from specialist agencies and and there are definitely very good ones in Australia.
Susan
I I completely agree, and for me, the insights. It really helps me to, like myth busts hypothesis. Hmm. So being able to gather all that data, as you say from all those sources and have hypothesis to go is what I think really what’s going on or not going on to help solve whatever the problem might be. So I I think that’s absolutely a really great example that you’ve provided there on what insights use and how to use them. But if we if we actually look at say a product, what are some of the key factors that are most important when considering insights for product.
Shawn
I think as a as a product person, insights tell me about the market in which I exist and operate or my product exists and operates. But and and I think you know it’s that situational insight. And so you know as a as a product person, I want to truly understand several things, right. And I want to understand about my customers, my competitor and the broader market. And I think about my customer, you know, who are my current customers who are my target customers. What are their personas? You know, what are their? What are their? Problems. What are their unmet needs and that helps me understand how I can help improve their lives and how I can. Solve their problems. Right. And and I remember I’ve heard this before and I I heard it more recently I remember. A pretty good quote. Person. Doesn’t want a three inch drill bit. Want a three inch?
Shawn
But if you think about how much time organisations spend thinking about the drill bit, you know it’s it’s, you know, not the actual customer problem. So I think the the inside of that customer helps achieve you to those things and they. Give you that perspective. I think you then have as a product person. You know inside is helpful. To understand what customers actually like and dislike about new products, I think insight helps you better understand. And you know the way in which they interact with your business, you know, a number of businesses across Australia and you. Know from big? To small businesses, you know they have a range of different touch points with their customers from call centre directions for interaction, digital interaction and I think insights can help you understand and improve. You know those touch points? I think it helps you understand if their experiences are leading them to change provider will reconsider their service and you know whether you know who they who they get their service from right. And and it’s even interesting I think the insight can help you understand. Do the customers you have actually have an awareness of the the full product feature set you actually are selling them and and and and and I was thinking about this the other day. You know, I’m sure like everyone I own a TV and I turned it on. I kind of set it up. There’s a few things that there’s so many features I have no idea what it does. One of my my 10 year old works and starts really playing with it. I’m like oh wow, actually it’s got a lot of unused features. I have no idea even existed right. So you know. Testing with your customers, though, those kind of things. Can can help. You better understand, do they really understand? The value prop that you’re giving them. I would say then, if I think about a different perspective or vector into my product, you know competition, who are my key competitors? Why are they winning or losing market share against my product and my brand and you know they say what’s the what’s the phrase. It’s kind of like you. Know learning is. The is the best form of flattery. Kind of copy of this. What you can say, what they’re doing that that’s obviously working. We can try that or do something different, right? I I think they’re beyond customer competitor.
Shawn
You know, in broader market trends, looking at a virgin technology and probably market disruption insight. Can help you look. Beyond your, your kind of inner circle of you know the new circle and understand what disruptive market forces might impact your business, you know. Will your product? Be superseded by something else. You know what emerging technology will also being developed. That you could partner with that enhance your product that you can utilise the capability better capability you could resell it. You know what does it do to your ecosystem and working in, in telecommunication, you know something you you usually need to consider because it’s such a diverse ecosystem. And I think the the insight then helps you get you know away from your own. Biases and it helps you step outside the organisational bubble. And see your world through. Maybe different prism or lens right from the outside looking. And then if you take your customers perspective, it can really help you improve and refine, you know everything. You do as a product person. I mean, if I put a a very different lens on it and and I was trying to think about what, what historically, what professions? Or or what group of people? You know deeply value data and. You know, I came back to things like all the kind of intelligence agencies that exist around the world, you. Know these these these. These organisations with you know, billions of dollars of investment going into intelligence gathering so that they can make very, very important decisions and very critical real time decisions. And so, you know, if you’re like the product owner, you’re almost like a. Some sort of field commander or or president of your product. You know you want to understand and see everything that’s happening in your higher landscape. So you know what’s going to happen and then how you can react to it and and respond.
Susan
Yeah, I think it’s it’s really important also to understand that some of the. The tools people might generally go to to try and get these insights from the customers can sometimes be biassed. My example here would be things like focus groups, where you might just get everyone having the same think tank happening in that room, so you’re not actually getting the right insight you need, so that’s where it comes down to data from behaviour that I personally love myself when it. Comes to product. Because you can see in the digital world at least. Down to every type of action that they’re doing, so that you know where they might be dropping off, where they’re interested in what aren’t they using in like the TV example, if it was connected in a way that you could actually work out, are they using seven of our twenty types of tools or pieces in there for them to use or are they using none of it? So you know what? To actually invest your money on as well.
Shawn
Oh. It it it’s it’s. Interesting, because I mean it depends on the data in in that instance. That tells you. A bit about the what, but it might not tell you about the why. And so then you you have to then obviously you can combine two different styles of insight from the the hard data about you know where the dropping. Off in the in. The the purchase process. Or the the research process. But then you might need to have real conversations to understand well, why is that?
Susan
Exactly. And I’ve seen that happen as well in some cases, when you’re actually redesigning a website where you want to redesign a website. You have people go through it and just test it without you, and then you’ll have some people that you actually sit down and go. Why did you make that decision? Why did you click on that? Why did you drop off there? And I think both of those two combined, like you said, makes it more powerful, insight about what is truly happening that will help this customer in the end solve the. Problem you’re trying to help them with.
Shawn
100%.
Susan
So we’ve talked about product, but I love, I know you don’t do this as a core of your role. I know you’ve had a lot to do with this, but what about insights when it comes to marketing itself, whether it’s some of the key important factors there?
Shawn
Yeah, look, good question. Yes, I have. I’ve been mostly a product centric person, but I’ve had a lot to do with marketing. Folk over the. Years, not a marketing expert, but look. From my perspective, look there’s, there’s, there’s. Absolute overlap with you know how a product person use insights and how a marketing person would use insight.
Susan
Agree.
Shawn
Yes. I do think there are probably some nuanced aspects of how a marketing person would use inside. That’s kinda. More relevant to to what they do right? I would start with maybe customer personas. Who are the customers? Who do we need to market to and promote our brand and and if I took the lens of. A marketing person often has. To work with a. Budget and and marketing is not a cheap activity. You know we’re doing outdoor TV.
Susan
OK.
Shawn
Radio pay to whatever it. Is, you know, it’s often you’ve gotta spend money to do it and so. If I think about how do you get the best return on investment of those marketing dollars, you want to understand from a target customer perspective, where are your customers and how do they best digest promotional, you know content when are they in the right mindset from a a purchasing perspective and and it is funny like I. And I don’t know about you. I’m often sitting there. Digesting, you know, different advertising content from all manner of you know, businesses from McDonald’s to having on to JB, I don’t.
Shawn
This right, sitting down on the TV. Like why? Why did they choose to do that? Why did they choose to do it now and?
Susan
Or even driving on the way to work and you see all the billboards or whatever it might be or radio.
Shawn
Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I think it it really, it’s quite thought provoking when you start saying well actually they are they thinking about it or is this targeted, is it not targeted have I you know am I in some target demographic or target seen somewhere. Only that insight really helps you better understand where your customers are. Who are they, your profiles, you know? Are they the the you know, the decision maker, for example, and you know, where are they? When are they ready to kind of, you know, absorb and when are they attuned and ready to to listen to the emotional content message? And I think, you know, the marketing is. You know in the business, in the unions, you know, need insight about, you know, Persona profile. So we could ultimately have the most appropriate awareness strategy, just make the best use of the funds, right. I would say. Then if you kind of step down the customer journey a bit, it’s about how the customers purchase. So you know who makes the decisions, who does the research, how they do their research at all, invaluable to their accurate, you know what you’re doing with your, you know, your promotional strategy. I I think the proposition perspective as well. It’s always important, I think, for marketers and product people to understand. You know what? Do customers dive you the most out of the proposition as they’re making their their selection or purchase selection when they’re comparing the different offerings in the market? What is it your different, you know, target market and target customers you know value most and I think that helps you then structure you know. Curating more value prop. So you’re promoting the the things that the customer does the most. I would say the brand level as well, there’s. You know, I think there’s there’s insight can be powerful because you know it it. Helps us, it helps. Our marketing understand how customers interpret and and how they. Maybe I don’t. Know if the word is a line or resume, but how they kind of identify, maybe with what your brand stands for? And and and I think again you know putting putting a marketing hat on, I often wonder. When we look at market share calculation breakdown and if you think about, you know, even not only my industry but other industries, you know, I sometimes wonder human beings are both complicated and and simple creatures. And I think can sometimes almost a. A gravitation from a person to a brand be simply about the brand name, what it stands for and.
Shawn
What that how that person feels a connection to that brand and and we we, you know Labour over proposition and journey insights and touchpoint insights which are all valuable but then sometimes you know is is 50% of the decision subliminally made or unconsciously made by our. Customer simply through. Then you know relating better to a particular brand and what that brand stands for. So and it’s. Not something we we speak about and product. As much as what a brand? Yeah. Brand person would definitely go brand paramount for them, but it it’s something that’s that’s, you know, I think it’s an important thing to to but you know to to ponder on. UM. From a marketers perspective as well, I would say often things like customer tune. You know, this kind of function often falls closer to to marketing teams in my experience, and I think obviously knowing why your customers leave and how you can get them to stay and be, you know, satisfied.
Susan
Agree.
Shawn
With your you. Know your brand and and their their experiences is absolutely critical. So again it’s like can help you with that.
Susan
So I think I think to to flip it on its head, we’ve been talking about insights that help and things that we know the customer needs or wants. But insights are also so powerful for the opposite. What they we know. They don’t want. So to be able to be able to get that definitive answer in the black and white area where you can to say I know they definitely do not want XYZ, that means you can descope that straight away and then maybe bring it back in a future iteration if for consideration so that can help you along the journey too.
Shawn
Ohh I agree and and look, it’s funny. Over the years I’ve seen. You know the same type of insight happened and or, you know, be be conducted over the course of time. And so you see teams and flows and the changes in customers preferences, you know over time and it’s quite interesting, OK, that was that was higher up, you know a year ago and you can understand. Right, right. So. It’s absolutely agree.
Susan
Fantastic. And talking about that in regards to quality, what does make a quality insight and who actually benefits from them when they are of quality?
Shawn
That’s a good question. Look, I think. A quality insight I think is an insight that creates specific awareness. So the first point is it’s specific, right? Obviously back to all the points and the perspectives I spoke to before, customers, product competitors, the order ecosystem both in a short sort of time frame and also a longer time frame ideally as well. You can get a sense of. Near term disruptions and then you know longer term disruptions and helps you plan? And I think all of. Those things, that’s. Specific like you pointed out, it helps you make black and white decisions and demystify, you know, some, that that’s made the unknown or ambiguous, and it helps you form. Data LED, you know fact based, you know, opinions and and then lead to good decision making. And then inevitably you know good action. You know, on the behalf of behalf of the business you work for. So then in terms of benefits, I think you know it’s not just a product person or a marketing person who benefits. So I think actually it’s everybody in the organisation because then that organisation will inevitably grow because you know, you are actually thinking about what your customers. You’re responding to the needs. You’re you’re tactically and strategically and operating and working well within your competitive environment. You’re able to keep pace with the market and continue to drive competitive advantage and manage kind of competitive forests.
Susan
You focused on that hole like. You said.
Susan
Like for that analogy, you’re focusing on the whole.
Shawn
That’s right. And you know you’re focusing on the drilling, right. You’re not continually looking inwards, you’re actually saying like well. Has look I I think. Being beyond the organisation, inevitably customers benefit because you understand then the better you understand them better, understand who they are, what they want, how they think, how they make their purchase decisions. What. Paying them while they are having you know, and I think then it gives you the visibility of all these things and allows your business to refine your product and solution to meet your customer need. But it’s actually very simple you know. That just does get complicated when you have, you know, organisations.
Susan
Yeah. And I think one of the things I see is a downfall out there is some places actually don’t know what to. Do with data. They don’t know how to use it to actually get insightful information out of because they might. Have too little. Or not gathering the right amount of data to actually. Be able to build insights so. So I want to delve. A bit more deeper into actual pitfalls of. Insights in general as well, and for me, one of the the biggest ones is. In in a past life I have presented an idea that I wanted to trial. As a testament, I had the data I had then the insights out of it, the prediction, the hypothesis, all of this, and I presented it in to get the approval and the seal. And then unfortunately, I just got told. No, because that’s not what I would do, even though they were not the target person who was signing it off. So I I found for myself as a pitfall. I think it’s a bit disappointing when some organisations don’t open themselves up to that they might not be the target audience. It’s somebody else. But what? What other ones have you ever come across?
Shawn
Your one’s a good one. I you know. Send that from time to time. I think it’s yeah, look. It’s your. Your customers are often very, very decision makers are often very varied. And again, I’ll put my purist hat on. You know you often if you’re working in a market you often have multiple customer segments who are very different and have different needs and they they get different things in your product. So you need to understand them right. And that’s why we, you know use the inside. But if I think about. General pitfalls. Look, I would say there are probably quite a few if I think about your performance, style, data or insight. Look, bring my accounting hat on. I’ve been in, you know, meetings, you know, over the years where you know people have different sets of numbers and it’s like, well, I’ve got this number and you’ve got that number and then, you know, chaos ensues. Right. And you. Have to try and. Work out the information of it you know. So I think having people not having.
Shawn
You know, not having a recognised single, you know, credible sort.
Susan
Single source, yeah.
Shawn
Of truth that’s being tested. And corroborated that’s why our finance team, to have you know. Peanuts. So that’s that’s. You know you need that sort of. In terms of, you know, maybe your customer or market centric research style data, I think some of having too much data relevant data and you know back to my points that data you know, no kind of no no insight or So what I think pitfall can be not curating the data for your audience. I’ve made that mistake. The past you think it’s great. You know, it’s fantastic. It’s just amazing insight. But it’s probably a. Little bit too academic and it’s not relevant, you know for the audience. Yep. You know the the the old chestnuts about sample sizes. I I actually love that one you know. Sometimes when you. You, you, you commissioned research and depending on the question. And the the. The target segment, you know your sample sizes can be variable in size, you know, so you gotta manage that, you know and. I think if it’s. Too small the the insights then then you’re not. Always sure whether to trust what they say, I think. The one they’re learning that I’ve taken from my my kind of years of experience on this. You know, I think getting the right vendor to to, you know, to do the work is often very good, not work some with some great, you know agencies over the years across all kinds of topics and I kind of know what I’m looking for these days. You know, you can usually tell when you know you’re engaging with someone. First off, you know where their strengths and weaknesses. There as well, I think you can kind of go with you know the. The wrong one. You know, often through your procurement process, I think you find out you can really, you know understand you get a sense of of will they be able to give you what you need. But you know you go with the wrong person off and you end up with disappointing results.
Susan
Exactly. And you ultimately want to be able to spend the money if you’re going to be paying for a research agency to assist you to actually provide meaningful insights that will help you. And then also help the customer too. So go back to that full circle.
Shawn
100% and it’s an. Investment right, like. You’re investing. You want to get, you know, a. Return and all those good things that. I spoke about before out of the investment, right?
Susan
Exactly. So I know you’ve been using insights for a while, but thinking about the type of framework, something that you use quite often that you can share and talk to us about.
Shawn
Yeah, his questions are fascinating. One, I think about rain works and you can have frameworks in the way you gather inside the way you to be the surveys, the way you do a particular, you know kind of project or you know research piece for me. I I’ve thought about it maybe.
Shawn
Maybe bigger picture than that, I thought. Look to develop inside, it depends obviously budget and and the. Focus of or. Your particular channel you know and segment that you work in. For me, I like the 360° in in my universe. And So what I’ve found works best is is like, you know, you’re building up a range of sources, you know, and they’re obviously incredible, but and and you build up those sources, you know that cover the the different aspects that I spoke about before competitor, customer, technology performance. You know also the the why you know how like not just you know, who are your customers and their attitudes and needs and stuff, but also you know your current experiences with your organisation. I think having passive and active insight is also very good. And what I mean by that is I have. You know, there are a number of good agencies in Australia who who send out newsletters and provide essentially free, you know, kind of snapshots or sound bites of insight of what they’re currently working on. And there’s some really great, you know, businesses who give more as well. You know, as part of our industry publication. So I have that stuff coming through to me. Yeah, I have that stuff coming through to.
Susan
White papers? Yep.
Shawn
Me, you know. Daily, Weekly and and that’s kind of a passive insight that I have. And then in terms of active insight, you’ve also been built up and you know have that, that. You know inventory and rolling kind of you know source of the active insight that comes through from different sources either within your business or you have to go and you know procure. It from market that. You know you’re actively saying, right? I need to better understand this. It’s been a while since we’ve we’ve thought about XYZ. It all kind of refreshed. The insight we have on this, how has the market changed? Have these insights change? So you have to be active about it. I I think from a framework perspective, I think. You know, if you’re the insights person in a in a in a business, building up a recurring cadence where you expose and discuss those insights with your kind of key stakeholders on a regular basis, I think it’s important from my perspective and. And it comes back to, you know, who it’s relevant to and is it timely and is that inside relevant to that group at that point in time. But, you know, I think if you do it well and do it regular enough, it kind of becomes part of the the muscle memory or the DNA for your stakeholder groups and.
Shawn
In my experience, you know, I think you know you get a bit of a a mix people. You know, as humans sort of, you know, they, they, they, they’ll they will. You know, gravitate to to different pieces of data or insight, sort of, depending on how helpful it can be to them. And I think if you show that the inside is helpful. To that group. To make good decisions and understand their ecosystem and and their universe, you know regularly they’ll become attuned to them. So I think that that’s something that’s definitely. OK. Actionable insight I think I’ve said that already. I think in the last part as well. You know, you obviously have, you know within any business. You have, you know, executive, you know, an executive level, an executive lawyer in your business and they. May always see. You know, they’re busy people, you know they’re running, you know, big businesses and small businesses, and they may not always get time to see. You know the insights and and properly understand them I. Think. If you can find a way to to, you know, embed those insights somehow into the time you know and the agenda of the executive suite. As well, it can be quite good too.
Susan
Yeah, it can be very powerful that reminder, because if they’re that far removed from the ground roots, that can mean that they’ve got that touch point in to be able to make those right decisions at the right time. That will help the business along the right way.
Shawn
Yeah.
Susan
Do you happen to have any examples, even very high level broad brush ones, on how insights have helped you make decisions within organisation?
Shawn
In a past role, you know I used to do you know, some work with LinkedIn in terms of, you know, creating content and then promoting that content and you know, some of the insight and the tools that I was able to use from from linking look quite good and and it was it wasn’t specific to 1 product. But I was able to use. The insight that ugly from LinkedIn to to queue rate my target audience and my target message and and actually I found it very instructive. You know, to me when I was, you know, getting that content out you know.
Shawn
In terms of it. Was very helpful to, you know, and. To to refine. How to best promote specific topical content? To the right person and the right audience in both a pulsing way and then also, you know, in the different audience groups in different places, and to help them refine my approach. So I found that quite quite.
Susan
And that does make a huge difference, doesn’t it? A huge difference. I know that you love insights. I know it excites you. I’ve heard you talk all. Through this podcast and your eyes just light up up as well. And when we’re talking about how it actually helps make the right business decisions, but what excites you the most about insights?
Shawn
Your your questions are very good. They’re they’re they’re they’re very thought provoking. Look, I I paid 2 minutes on it, right? I I think you know most companies be Australia or elsewhere, you know, existing competitive markets they face it’s competition. And so I think it’d be kind of rare you’d have the luxury of being able to run a business.
Susan
I’ll try.
Shawn
About at least base of insight. So I think it’s almost hygiene, but that’s not, you know, that’s not the exciting part of this.
Shawn
Yeah, Connor, it’s the revealing of the truth.
Shawn
You know, I’m. I’m a person who at times I like black and white. And I I, you know, we we understand and have that singular clarity of the why of why something’s happening and what’s happening and why it’s happening. You know, it’s it’s fantastic. You know, it demystifies uncertainty. And it removes the mystery. It provides it absolute clarity that then says to you, OK, that’s what’s up. Ah, and then you can go into solution mode and on the solution or the person so then that helps you trigger that. OK, Matt. Right. Well. What do we do? With this and it makes you feel like you’re adding value and then solving problems.
Susan
I love that I absolutely love that. Thank you so much for sharing all these details about insights. But as always, I have a final question to ask. If you were a brand, any brand at all, you can be more than one. If you choose which one best represents you and why.
Shawn
Question. This is the. This is the good one. I I’m I’m. I’m gonna probably break. Maybe break the rules of the question a little bit but this question makes me be quite reflective about who I am and what my values are. It’s like that question of you know, who who would you? Want to? Go to dinner with. All right. I’ll give my answers. I would say. First, this is gonna not in any particular order. I’d say Google as as a starting point, I’ve often. I’ve I’ve spent good bits of time looking at what they do as a business and and their their you know, their company. They’re quite curious. I think they’re customer centric and you gotta think about, you know, what would our world be like? You know actually I do know what it was like before Google Maps, Google Translate. You know they are using technology and they are truly understanding.
Shawn
Customer people problems and they are harnessing technology in not only not unorthodox way, but in a very innovative ways, you know to to solve those problems. And it’s brilliant and and I think they’re willing to experiment as well kind of well they are. And there’s been a number of projects that.
Susan
Take some risks.
Shawn
They’ve done on shelves over the years. Or or maybe. Haven’t kind of, you know, gone full scale for some reason and I think it was project Blue I recall was creating. Cellular connectivity using a hot air balloon. There was Google Fire and a few others. Maybe they’ve got these special projects going around spreading. They had an augmented reality project many years ago before I was, I think SpaceX as well, I think are pretty good too. From that perspective. You know they’re going to do. Innovative things and and challenge the status quite right. The point that they. Will seek to put a. I think it’s a multi stage rocket up into space and then they’ll want to land it back. Like who does that? You know, it’s great.
Susan
And that’s what they’ve been testing and doing. It’s fantastic.
Shawn
But have. Second agreement would be National Geographic. Iron Man. I’m a lover of nature. I’m always even as a kid, I was always drawn to documentaries with David Attenborough still. And my kids love him as well. And so, you know, I love as a brand, their focus on education and their passion for the living world. You know, I think is, is, is. Commendable, right? So it speaks. To me, as a person. Patagonia in the same way, kind of A and and nature centric brand, but maybe in the way they’re, you know in their SDK kind of thinking they’re they’re they’re altruistic. I think they’re the company profits. They’ve made a point of saying that the company profits are now, you know, kind of forever dedicated to to combating climate change and protecting kind of under. Plan so whether as a person you agree with it or not, I think it’s great. You know that that social equity and social social cause to the brand. I think it’s brilliant. I think a lot of the car companies that might sound very boring for a lot of people, but if you think about their passion for precision engineering.
Susan
Safety.
Shawn
Yeah, you know, like, I mean, we drive vehicles around and have the kilometres plus an hour and and you know the the the accidents that you happen, you know, like it’s it’s, you know, the the car companies putting in tonnes of investment and innovation to to enhancing their safety features and it’s. Great. But the thing that probably. When you reflect on, it makes me admirable of of the brands of these companies is that they can they can convince good, you know, swaths of the population every year to buy a new car. So they have tapped into something psychological about what a car. Our car, you know. Is wrapped in our own personal brand. How the car we drive? Says something about us and that is that is very smart from a from a very perspective. And so I look, I think you know that’s I’ve gotta, I’ve gotta commend the the you know those companies for doing that. Yeah, last one. Sorry you asked for one. And I’ll give. You the last one we’ve been.
Susan
OK, that’s an interesting one to choose.
Shawn
And if. It it is and I don’t know how much of this is urban legend. I remember when I was doing, you know, my marketing and kind of, you know, business courses at university. Mr His stories about they’re very scientific approach to customer experience and and their value. And and I recall there was a story, I’m sure about the design of their seats and how they had. You know, kind of almost scientifically tested the design of the seat to make sure that it was, you know, of a of a certain, you know, certain comfort level that encourage turnover now, so that people would wanna come and eat their meal. And I think the thinking behind that. Was that it was all about demonstrating, you know, if the restaurant was full, people wouldn’t want to stop the egg. Whereas if it was, you know, half full kind of with some space, people would go OK, that’s great. You know where we can go. But, you know, McDonald’s have, I’m sure, over the years have done far more than that. You know, I think they’re they’re really customer centric, scientific approach to understanding the customer journey. He’s brilliant and I started.
Susan
We’ve done a lot with colours.
Susan
Over the years. There’s been a lot they’ve done with colours. That’s why the Reds and then into the Browns. There’s a lot of science behind that as well.
Shawn
Think I said I did not know that. But I would, I would believe it.
Susan
Punch book interesting collection. I can understand why. So thank you so much for sharing the brands that best represent you. But again thank you so much Sean, for talking to us about insights. We now know what a a good, valuable insight is and the benefit can bring not just the company but also the customer. And the value it can add to your products and to make sure that you’re always continuously testing that and going back and making sure everyone in the organisation is on the same page consistently, just as a gentle reminder. So it builds up that natural cat. In the company. So thank you again, Sean.
Shawn
My pleasure, Susan, and thank you very much for having me on.
Susan
No worries actually. Have you again, but everyone else, don’t forget to add more to marketing to your playlist so you don’t miss out on more fabulous guests in the future. More to marketing.