more2marketing_product_leads.mp3
Transcript
Susan
More to marketing. Welcome to more to marketing, a podcast on marketing, product and everything in between. I’m your host, Susan, and we’re talking about product owners and product managers today because I wanted to ask the question, is there a difference? And to help me answer this question, I’ve brought in a very special international subject expert to join me. I’d love to welcome Dave. David David is a thought leader in the project management space, A keynote speaker and also a product coach. So David, can you tell me a bit more about your passion of product management and how you? Got here today.
David
Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. So I started working with digital products around 15 years ago and I didn’t plan to be in this field. I was a software. In here and out of the blue, someone got to know me and said I like how you communicate. You make like things simple. And then I ended up being a product owner, moved from my small town to Big Town Sao Paulo. In this case the biggest in South America. And then since that moment.
David
I worked as a product manager, head of product startups and corporations, and then I moved from Brazil to Germany. And yeah, that’s what I have been doing over the last 50. 10 years.
Susan
Sounds like an amazing journey to be able to even cross continents there as well and all the fantastic experience, particularly I’d assume with startups the starts would be absolutely crazy.
David
Yeah, that’s generally fun. And I’m in another startup I generally end up in startups all the time because I love this atmosphere of creating and stepping into the unknown. All of the things push me. They really push my motivation.
Susan
And and must feel so satisfying as well. When you see the end. Results.
David
Yes, that’s the magic right. Because generally when I startup, you have an idea and you end up with something totally different than your idea. And it’s magical because what matters is the journey. It’s not starting with the idea and prove yourself right, but creating something that you didn’t even know it is possible.
Susan
I I I’ve never been in a stop myself, but I can just. I I I’m all inspired by you to be able to do so many of them and the amazing things that you’ve done. But I I suppose one of my my leading question I was asking in the intro was. I want to understand. More about the difference between a product manager and a product owner, because I think there’s a bit of a mishmash out there. So would you mind helping me to understand the difference between? Both of those.
David
So this is a tricky question because of course it depends who you ask and how the companies work. But I’ve been in multiple scenarios where the answers would vary and I came up with mine. Which is there is no difference. It should not be a difference. It’s the product owner is the role inside. It’s from now it’s called an accountability, but it’s something inside the framework and product manager is the job itself and product management. It is about creating value for customers and the business. Figuring out how you do that and the product manager job is the best person to fill the product owner accountability. This is the best way of working in the simplest end to end responsibility. It doesn’t matter the name, but the challenge happens when you have both. There are some frameworks that actually by design they have both. Then what happens is that the product owner is responsible for the execution and the product. Manager for the strategy is kind of the product manager figures out what is the right thing to do and the product owner ensure this thing gets done right. But what is the problem there? There is a handover of accountability and I’ve been in this scenario funny enough on both sides. Product owner. And manager as a product owner, if something would go wrong, the product manager would blame me saying like hey. For execution and I would blame back saying for decision making. So it’s not fun. It’s better to have an end to end responsibility regardless of the name, because when they coexist, there is a lack of accountability and that isn’t helpful for anyone.
Susan
I was fortunately in a position in an agile environment. Where I was a product manager for a brand, but also the product owner for the squad. So I found myself watching other product managers. It was a bit easier for me in the sense that I could do strategy and also put the prioritisation order in place for the team to know how to get their successful. What was happening?
David
It’s quite interesting.
Susan
Other areas, though it was completely different where you had a separate person who may not even be part of that team being the product owner.
David
MHM.
Susan
And having all these different smears coming in within that squad, so then they they are literally separated and don’t have I I believe it’s not the right way to do it because I don’t think they’ll. Have their heart in it. If you’re the product manager, you have the heart in it. You you want it to succeed, you want it to be amazing, but if you’re separated and it’s a different product owner running it, they may not have that same heart behind. It.
David
Yeah, because then it changes. Instead of being the product owner, which the ultimate goal is to maximise value, actually you become a kind of a backlog owner. So you own the backlog, but you have to manage the backlog and your job is to keep filling that and so on. It’s it’s not fun anymore. So then it loses the magic and the motivation, right? Because you are not the one like you are kind of a A in a ride, but as a passenger you are not a driver any longer. So you you need to hope for the best. You hope that that the driver knows.
Susan
And avoids the lower speed bumps too.
David
Yes. What I I learned over the time is like many people ask me one specific question. How do I get the product owner and product manager to succeed together? And I say I you are not gonna like the answer you don’t. I said it’s better to have smaller teams with smaller responsibility, but end to end and empower them to make decisions. So if sometimes I see here in Germany teams with 12 people. And there is a product manager and a product owner. I said let’s just do the following split into two teams of 6 and promote. There is only one row. Then you choose if you want product owners, product owner, if you want product manager, product manager or you choose something that is better. I think it’s product needed as the name product manager is a little bit misleading. You don’t manage anyone and the product owner doesn’t own anything. So I I it’s all about leadership. It’s it’s not about being on top of the others. It is on the same level but leading the product direction. So I like more than in product lead in general.
Susan
I I I do like that as well because. You are part. Of the team you get your elbows in there as well, and generally you’re putting with SMEs that are your peers, so you’re working together for that common goal, and then you may tell your leaders what’s what’s happening, how you’re progressing and everything you’re trusted to be able to deliver. As per whatever your KPIs or your briefing is.
David
Yes, that’s right.
Susan
So as as you’ve said yourself, there is this blurring that’s been happening between what a product owner, product manager and potentially product lead is it do you do you know of any key reasons why this might be happening out there?
David
Yeah, it’s because of a lack of trust and an extreme focus on predictability. See, so up to now what I have seen is like companies want to know what happens when and who is accountable for that. So they believe in general that having a process is the best way. And if you have the product manager, it’s very clear responsibility. Have the product owner very clear and you can focus on the process. And that is the the problem. But I’m not saying that the companies are wrong, they just have not seen another way of working. So they need someone to get them on the journey to see another way of work. What I have seen over the years like some people try coming to the company saying this is wrong, this is wrong. This is wrong and then there will be a resistance. It’s a direct flight, a flight. They are not going to change anything. But if you have the patience to tell what if we try something different? Maybe we try something different with. Hunting just for 1/4 and then we compare results and if we like it, we scale that up so it’s someone willing to take the company in a journey kind of, you know, instead of going to the top of the mountain and start shouting. Hey, here is very beautiful. Look at the sunshine how it is. But they are in the bottom and then getting to the top is super hard.
Susan
Hmm.
David
You go down and you meet them one step ahead and extend your hand and say let’s go together on this.
Susan
I do love that and I I think a recent example for me on this one is. The team that I manage, I’m introducing a few of the agile methodologies just to help my team and to to give them some direction to assist in what we’re doing together. So one of the things I’ve brought in is a tiny little thing. It’s not a huge thing, but it’s just daily stand ups for 10-15 minutes. Where we literally just talk about what we’re doing today, what we accomplish, what we’re gonna accomplish today. That’s all we. Do but it talking to the team, the feedbacks being this has given me a sense of accomplishment for the day. When I get that tick done, I feel like I’m part of the journey. I feel like I’m going with you somewhere. So like you said, that small little piece can make a difference instead of just going me going and going, we’re doing our job. You’re doing it this way. Only instead of just brought in the few little pieces I think makes sense for the team I have.
David
That’s cool. Yeah, that has been my approach. After hitting the wall, I tried the other way already. So that’s why. And let’s. It’s not that I didn’t try, so I tried already implementing Scrum without knowing the why we needed to implement and. Of course cause more. Confusion because people didn’t know why we were doing that and my last attempts were. Different actually. We started doing strong without saying we are doing very similar like what is the most beneficial right now. One of the things was organising what we are going to achieve for the next few weeks and said let’s sit down and say what can we do for the next two. Let’s set the goal for the week and then the demo. That’s cool. Let’s set the goal, and then we set. Let’s go from there. And tomorrow let’s go. And then said by the end of the week, what about we? We just check what happened and how, how satisfied we are. What have we achieved and then we discuss how we can do differently. And then yeah, that sounds cool. And then in the end, we were actually doing. One, but it took a while. What I see the difference is when you start kind of evangelising and saying this is what we do and so on. The team doesn’t understand because that’s not what I need. So companies do push like what is the process? How do we share? And I say you simply don’t insure if you do it correctly. It is about the learning. It’s how you improve as a team. And I generally say like, let’s deal with the problems we do have that they are standing in front of us. And let’s leave it out. The what ifs now, because the future problems, they may not even exist. So let’s just not talk about them right now. Let’s focus one. Step after the other.
Susan
Definitely. And that’s all about prioritisation, isn’t it? Doing like the Preto rule, the 8020 focus on where you know you’ve got issues that you can see it you know where the major hits are going to be. And then once that’s done, that’s what the backlog is for.
David
Correct.
Susan
I think I think one one of the things that I’ve noticed and I don’t know if you have, but I think. It’s important to keep a bit of a separation when it comes to the different types of roles. So for me, one of the questions that that I really wanted to ask you because I know you’re a subject expert here and it’s not usually like me to keep questioning, questioning, questioning. But do you believe it’s important to keep them separated? I know you said you don’t. That. Is there really that middle ground for that product lead for everyone to start considering?
David
In terms of separation, I think there is a balance between future and present. This needs to happen and I say like when the team fully focused on the present, meaning that all that matters is delivering features. The result is very simple everyone. Everyone is creating results and we are delivering features, but somebody else is building the future because we are not looking at that and there is the other extreme when everyone focus on the future and not building anything for the present, then someone else is building the present. And then we are just imagining. Future the beauty happens when we balance because then we can explore the future while building the present. So we prepare for that and to make that happen. There is a dual track, agile. I call it. There’s an ambiguity we need to look in the future at the future and present and what I like doing is what at that as attorneys recommend. So having continuous discovery habits, for example, set a trio for example, product manager, UX designer and a soft engineer.
David
Or whoever is necessary, and these people start working. Maybe three days a week looking into the future, doing experiments and so on, saying what makes sense, what doesn’t make sense, and when you find something that makes sense, you come together with the team and say, let’s pursue that. So there is this differentiation and sometimes when there are product managers and product owners, the product. Manager will be the one in the future, the product owner in the present. It’s not easy to work this way because it’s unnatural to most people, because the truth is, as humans, we like predictability. We hate the Anon, so we like to know what is going to happen when. So if we are always stepping to the non forcing ourselves, it means that we need to remain with an open minded. Trying to uncover what we don’t know, because the truth is very hard. We don’t know what we don’t know.
Susan
Exactly. And how do you approach then all these startups that you’ve worked on to to get through that unknown? What’s your secret sauce there?
David
Ask questions. Generally, someone in the startups, it’s a cause like. It’s a reach source of ideas. Everyone has many ideas all the time, and then they come very excited about the idea and most of the time they would like to implement something, give you an example the other day. Our solution for this is a chat bot. Look there’s chat DPT. Everything magic happening, measure. We put that in our product and then that’s it. Chat bot. Everyone’s going to use it. It’s going to rock it. So let’s build it and I say hold on.
David
How do you know it’s going to work? Which evidence do you have supporting that?
David
You came up with this idea. What? What happened when that clicked in your mind? So let’s let’s step back. And one thing that we can do is name the assumptions and say. What can we do right now? The fastest way to learn the example of a chatbot is very easy. You do a Wizard of Oz for example. Instead of building the whole thing. You can fake until you can make it, but this is what Ashmore likes saying from the lean startup. So you put the chat bot there instead of a chat bot. You put the chat actually, and you put the smart person behind the chat and you see how people would interact with the chat bot. And then maybe you actually are going to learn that nobody uses it. Are used in a totally different way. So you need to figure out how to test the ideas, but also it comes something quite interesting. It’s not all ideas that is are worth testing, so you need to see what what will help you get closer to your vision. What connects your strategy? What connects you are most pressuring gold right now and the ones that don’t, then you should not pay attention to that. So that’s why you need to ask questions. And I used to say that good product management is about saying no. But I now say that good product management is about helping the others say no to themselves.
David
So. Because if you say no, you become a blocker. Yeah, you are one like a. No, no, I I did that several times. But then my boss would get too many emails that I was a business blocker. So I figured out another way that I help people reflect.
Susan
Yeah, and realise that there’s another way.
David
Exactly.
Susan
I love that and asking questions and all those wise one of one of the ones that I think I probably annoy my team with is. They they come to me with a pack and we’ll talk about, like different types of metrics. And one of them will be active customer. And the one thing I always ask is definitions. What is your definition? So similar to the why it’s what are you talking about? I want to be on the same page, so definitions. Definitions definitions so that I think this you can be saying that to be honest, but I I I love the curiosity.
Susan
The curiosity to be able to get the best solution possible and not just walking in with the solution as well.
David
That’s great. And I like what you said about the Phoenicians because it’s asking why without. Asking why and one of the things that a a coach product manager is yeah, you need to ask why, but be careful with the word. Why? Because many people know this technique, the five wines. But what is the problem? Why? Why is challenging? You’re gonna put someone on the defensive mode. You say like, why do you think that the person immediately like? I’m being challenged, so I need to answer so the person will go in a defensive mode. So I like saying rephrase that with what or how. For example, how did you come to this idea? Let me let me understand that or what is giving you the confidence for that. So what do you want to achieve with this? Mm-hmm. This is so important and this shows curiosity because curiosity is the most important part, not the challenge itself. It’s the learning you want to learn. You want to be on. The same page everyone.
Susan
Yeah, and and especially bringing them on the. Journey as well so they feel part of it.
David
Yes.
Susan
That that will keep the whole team empowered to be able to push through anything difficult to get to the end. What other pitfalls have you ever come across? Because naturally, you’re going to have those ones where people feel like they’re put against a wall. When you start questioning them. But what other pitfalls have you seen when it comes to the the lead type of position?
David
Ohh generally it is about the relationship with business people, so it’s very easy to fall into an anti pattern. I call as the stakeholders puppet. So you mess up the job.
Susan
Yes, person, yeah.
David
Exactly. So you kind of you, you mess up. What is the real job? Because, for example, when I started my product owner career, I remember my friends asking me, what do you do? I had a hard time explaining that and I found my definition by saying. I bridge communication between business and tech and I found that very nice because I could talk to both sides. What I didn’t realise was I focused on the wants of business people while ignoring the needs from customers. That’s the hard way. We all learned that actually. And we created solutions that nobody needed and sometimes actually such solutions cause problems instead of creating value. So this is one of the biggest pitfall. Collaboration, so collaborating with business people to become partners because I when I I generally say is stakeholders, business people, they are not your enemies. They are also not your customers. So you need to be careful unless you have an internal product which is different. Like to establish partnerships with them because it’s very unlikely that a product lead, product manager, whatever the name, will have all the required knowledge to create value. As if you look at the let’s take an E commerce for example have so many things there that would be operations, finance, accounting, legal aspects. Product manager won’t know everything but the new partner with the others to create value together and is not about pleasing them is about going toward the same direction.
Susan
100%. And I think it’s one of the things that’s lacking is some of that relationship building or not knowing who to build a relationship with, particularly if you’re building a team from scratch for the first time or just first being introduced to the role, finding out who the right people in the zoo is is critical for success.
Susan
No, I I’ve. I’ve had my own ups and downs on that. One as well. I learned very fast. I don’t tell people what to. Do I bring them on the journey? Don’t listen to that manager that tells you to tell people. What to do? Do it your way and be empathetic. Don’t just trust that they’re right. I learned that the hard way. I know you. Love project management? You’re writing a book right now, which I’m super excited to see in the near future. But what excites you most about project management?
David
About the possibility of making. The lives of someone better than what it is. So I think the result of product management is making the world that you are in a little bit better. So it’s quite exciting about creating the new reimagining, the future, striving something. So I like this. Journey. Exactly. Remember for example, when I joined one of the startups in. To. Selling second hand cars in Brazil is complicated. They are frauds, it’s bureaucratic and you can be scammed. So it’s quite hard. Then they sort of had the the idea of let’s make it simple. Let’s remove all the bureaucracy and the value proposition was. We sell you, we sell your car in one hour, you come to us, we inspect and then we put in an auction platform and car dealers all over Brazil can compete for that. So it was a triple win situation because also car dealers struggled to find cars they would like to buy. And we started changing how the second hand car market in Brazil took place. And remember, when I joined the company would sell like a.
Wow, that’s so.
David
Would make 6 deals a month and when I left which was not that long time, I say there was just eight months. But eight months in, a startup is quite something, and we started selling 2000 cars in a month and I was like, wow, it’s in from 6 to 2000 and in just eight months. And that made the at least 2000 people per month. Were way happier than they were. They would just go there, but they would sell their car for fair price and without any bureaucracy. We would handle everything. So these kind of things is what motivates me.
Susan
Seeing that change would have been huge as well, because you know that impact there within that short amount of time.
David
Yeah.
Susan
That that’s that’s amazing. I love that example and it’s something I’ve never heard of as well. Maybe other countries need to be doing something similar because it sounds like. It really fills a. Need out there to save people time. And also dealers time and then they know they got the right car to sell on. It’s just got so many positive things that come out of. That and all different directions.
David
Yeah. And for example here in Germany I. I wanted to sell my car so I I went through all of this. I put another portal there and I got some offers, but then I need to negotiate with the person. It cost me a lot of time and said OK, it’s not working. So I’m going to drive to a car dealer. Then you need to go there physically and then the car dealer is going to make you a bad offer. Because the generally it’s hard for them and they’re buying your car, so they take the risk. Then I went to another car dealer and I said this one gave me already this offer. Then they said, OK, I can make you a little bit better. In general, I realised that I spent at least. It’s. 20 hours to get my car sold and 20 hours I could have been doing something else. So this time you don’t get back and you just don’t see it because you were trying. When I was in Brazil, I had to sell. I just drove there. One hour later, the car was sold and I did not have to deal with any documents.
Susan
Yes, it that is. A a fantastic example of how thinking a different way on how to do something can bring a beautiful solution. No one thought of.
Susan
No, I I do like auctions as well, particularly when they’re for shiny. Things.
David
That’s cool.
Susan
Exactly. It’s part of our nature, isn’t?
David
It. Yeah.
Susan
I have a question. I ask everybody and I did prepare you for this one, so hopefully you have had a chance to think about it. But when you’re thinking about branding yourself, what brand best represents you and why?
David
It’s quite interesting. I I had an answer I prepared for that, but I’m changing. I was about to say Apple because of all the quality and everything around and the smoothness, but then I changed to a totally different one that has nothing to do with electronics and I changed 2 balls and. It’s funny because I used to hate the word boss and because I I didn’t like that. But the reason I like the brand boss is because once I there it, it’s high quality and. One. But there is one thing be the boss of your life and I have always been thinking like this. When I worked for a company and I didn’t do any consulting in the past. I would just work for a company. I would say that the company is my biggest client, but as of now I just have one and I would always consider myself. As my own boss and I was there to learn and I never like I was, I was never afraid of speaking my mind to anyone who was in the room. Doesn’t matter if it’s a sea level or whoever it is, because I always thought we are all people. And of course I’m going to respect and I know that there are high. But I always treated myself as the boss of my own life and I like the brand because of this authenticity and being authentic. Be yourself and be your own boss. Don’t let the others tell you what to do. You should be the one driving and if you accept someone telling what to do is because.
David
You accepted that. So don’t complain, you accept it.
Susan
I love that I love you and on a journey for this as well to find what really fitted into you and examples that really resonate with you as well. So I think. That’s a really good brand example for you. But thank you for sharing that is. There any other? Final thoughts that you’d love to share with us about about product management and in particular anything maybe about technology you’d like to end with?
David
Yeah. Generally I like telling people. Don’t focus on the process. Focus on the learning because what I see happening quite often. Many people ask me what is the best framework to work with? What are the top notch techniques of product management? I say it doesn’t matter. Because all places you go are different. What is important is you have the ability of recognising what you can do in your situation and think about this thing you can do today for better tomorrow start small. Think on gradual increments because these are the things that are going to move the needle. And that’s what I recommend. People go on a journey, go on a place, and accept there is no single place on Earth that will be high. It’s like perfect for product management, but there are many places with opportunities. Enjoy the.
Susan
I love that. I love that so much and you’ve shared so much with us as well today, David, I’m so thankful. First off, don’t think about product owners and product managers as different people. They can be what’s called maybe a product lead maybe out there something different where it could be a hybrid and the best of both worlds coming. Together. And utilising and. And empowering smaller teams so that they can. Actually achieve more goals. Don’t be afraid to ask questions and just if you’re a bit worried about your audience, just reposition that question of why just something that’s more inviting for them to answer. In an open. Way relationships are key. Ensure that you build those relationships and that’s part of really a partnership. You’re there together to build and. When you do start, you don’t be afraid to start small because it will grow and grow and everything’s a journey to where it might end up one day with a fantastic new product on the market. So thank. Thank you. Again, David, I really appreciated your time and everyone else. Don’t forget to follow more to marketing for more fantastic guests on these podcasts. More to marketing.
