Susan
More to marketing. Welcome to more to marketing, the podcast on marketing, product and everything in between. I’m your host, Susan, and today we’re going to be talking about service, marketing and a few other aspects around this topic. I’m really excited to share that I have a specialist. In this area on board today. I have Ben. Ben has decades of experience and service, product delivery and also product management. He is definitely an expert in this field with amazing background that also goes all the way back to arts. He uses his creative perspective to help lead business transformations. Welcome, Ben.
Ben
Hi, Susan. Nice to be on the podcast.
Susan
Thank you so much for being here. And why don’t I through to you and you tell us a bit more about your background.
Ben
And like ohh OK, like you mentioned I come from arts. Well, I did a Fine Arts degree and that was in it called back in the day called Intermedia. Art was the.
Ben
Progress done and that’s what you would see nowadays is light installation, sounds movement, although sort of modern up back in my day it was quite controversial, but it all deals with human some of its human emotions and thinkings and the art that I went through is the theory of art and why and how you practise it. I also do a lot of social studies and did psychology and human behaviour and one of my biggest topics I did was feminist studies, which was aren’t gender and representation. Yeah. Through the ages. So that was where. I started. I went into Make Heart TV, worked in bars, nightclubs and a lot of retailers. Well, merchandising and visual merchandising here in Australia. I’m from New Zealand originally. And then I fell naturally into what kind of naturally I went into being an accountant and doing payroll and HR, and also then I sort of fell. Into a job. At AMP back in 2010. And that was just to be a content person to do a website migration and from there I always love learning and things have always interest me. As you know, once you learn how it’s done or why and some of those actually human psychology behind it. So I was learning why you’re doing this website, why you’re promoting things. Why does a marketing manager want to have this component? Work this way and I’ve got a kind of brain that goes from A-Z and all various ways. It doesn’t do a linear it goes. Up and down and I can straight away see what you want way from at the end and Z. But sometimes I have to let you go from ABCDE cause it’s the. Way you work. But it’s always interesting. So that led me into product management and I’ve always been customer first like. And when I talk customer, I don’t always necessarily mean. The customer outwardly from the organisation, it’s the customer inwardly and that’s how it sort of really in a very natural way got into service design. I’ve never been a full practitioner of it or learned her. I’ve learned the practise as I’ve gone along or learned from really good service design or people that think customer. And that was a big challenge. Obviously AMP. I’ve been at a wear super. I’ve worked on financial advice. I’ve done administration systems, trust learned, you know, back end. Pas systems, you know, to back and forth and content management systems. Adobe one client I’ve recently worked with, which is really amazing, was Moody. But you know that got me back into E commerce where I’d come from originally and retailer manufacturer. And again I use service design thinking through that while I was hired and as project management and doing some product, I really pull on the service design area because that enables the business to move forward. I find often more than sometimes product.
Susan
I think the amazing thing about your background is all that comes back to people and how people are involved in all these different processes and then being able to utilise that now in your roles that are more focused on product. Where it’s management or service delivery that you’re really bringing it all together because you can see all the different aspects that other people might have blinkers on for.
Ben
I mean, and I think I learned a lot of that actually going back to merchandise planning and visual merchandising at Myer and David Jones and part of that is, yeah, you’re always planning ahead five years ahead with merchandising, visual merchandising is for those that don’t know, is the output that you see when you walk in the store, how things are laid out. That’s the. Way to make things sale. But merchandising is planning looking at costs. Whether what human behaviour is doing what stores and I learned from Maya and a really good buyer at David Jones, Kate and she was in the shoes. But I really learned about like, why you buy, where you shift things and how you can look at it. And that again, you’re looking at resourcing, you’re looking at who the staff are and. In the packing areas, who can enable things, how many people? On the floor. What’s? The weather in Canberra compared to what’s the weather in Queenstown, Queensland. So you know you’re not gonna leave every jumpers that didn’t sell in winter because there’s always going to be one or two up in Queens then when you know you’ve got sales and it’s going to really sell down in Canberra. So how do you move? So hey, look at and. Taking all of those things, I’ve always taken an experience from a different industry and to every industry I go because they’re all relatable. Yep.
Susan
Definitely all that cross skills. Definitely very valuable.
Susan
So I’ve got my. Big question I have for you to lead our discussion cause we’re. Gonna be having. More of a debate style discussion today. What’s the key difference between product management and service delivery management? What what’s those crucial things that we need to understand of those differences?
Ben
For me, the difference between them is product management is about your product and product management can go in many ways. Often you’ll hear there’s a, you know, product growth manager, there’s all the different types, you’ve got product donors in some industries where they’re looking just at delivery of. Feature they do do service design too and which is in there, but it’s often left into the UX World and UX doesn’t do full service design. It is often all of these. Both of them take an element, whether it’s I’m to create a new product or I need to enhance the product.
Susan
Agree.
Ben
And they’ll look at what the customer is doing with that particular product that they’ve already designed, defined as a goal. Service design can take that product, but it looks outwardly and inwardly and in all depths, so it looks across what you call channels. So if our customers say you want to book build a booking tool online, it’s not going to just look at the UX experience around the booking tool and leave a business analyst to come up with all the requirements to fit the system. It’s going to look at what the customer’s doing before they get to the booking tool channels. They’ll use as an app. Is it the website, will they fluctuate? Will they call the call centre when there’s a problem and you it’s some people will call it a process? This map, but it’s a bit more than that. You will then go into those areas. So the call centre and you’ll find out the problems they have or opportunities into that area. But you map it out like the way that I. Use. It is what I call a. Blueprint and you know, you sort of stages of a customer journey and. You use product. Management uses things like tools like jobs to be done or a customer journey map, but the jobs to be down over often found don’t go a little bit more and I use a couple of things. I always relate back to a value proposition statement. Have we got one, where do we reflect? It’s also the art of learning not to go into a. Rabbit hole. And and and everybody else will try not to go into those. They’ll avoid them. They won’t even reach down a rabbit hole. They go. Oh, we know that’s too big for us in the call centre. We’re not gonna touch that. That’s their area. You’ll end up with other requirements. They have nothing to do with the product or anything that we’re wanting. For the artist service designers to go in there and learn enough map out where they have got big issues but not too in depth and come back and say there are opportunities for future so that you know. What is a rabbit hole versus what’s a rabbit Warren?
Susan
Hmm. 100% and I think a lot of this from my experience. Again going back to that UX example, yeah, where they don’t actually in some cases don’t even look at the technology further down the line and its impact. It’s all about that moment that they’re either fixing or developing. And not necessarily how it integrates with everything else. And that’s where that service delivery management tool like you said, the blueprint can help you actually map out other other systems that are going to be impacted and involved in this. And then who you need to bring on the journey with you to make it successful.
Ben
Yeah. And part of that is one thing I line my in that big blueprint I like to put is, is, are there other projects or other things happening. So you can look at them, which also helps project managers or if you’re working in a very agile environment where I would before we don’t do projects and it’s continue. Development. They know where the impacts are. You are able to kind of sequence or go actually is there a higher value if we help this team over here that’s enabling you. I also look at IT systems, what what products have we got and the background managing this. So for an example and superannuation and a lot of old trust systems are on old pads product administration.
Susan
Legacy systems, definitely.
Ben
Yeah. And So what will often happen is product won’t look at that. That’s there for a BA or we we use it, they’ll call out an existing risk and go odds on an old system. Then they try to fit into that system where service design will enable and say there’s these issues here. And what platform? So you’re able to look at and go actually we we won’t be able to do this. We can see the future problems. So that we might have to reposition and say actually we’re not going to build this new booking tool. What we need to do is invest in a new system and migrate our customers into that and work with those all call centre somewhere in about a booking tool. To enable the use of it first and it’s not, it’s not 100% use, but it’s enough that we really focus rather than down the line. It’s suddenly we’ve got to invest. It’s a very hard and change management, but I think the biggest difference is that product design, which is product management, focuses on the. Thing and less on the people that discover it. While we do do personas and you know who’s using it and who would use it. We’re not really focused on how they discover it and how they get. Help or how? Manage it forward where service design is complete end to end customer journeys through your channels. So. Call centres IT tech the customer discovering it, the husband of the customer discovering it and you know also out the marketing area, you know what other things, what other stuff do we do to promote this product today?
Susan
Yeah. And it’s bigger pace because I think a lot of actual individuals are working on, say, product. In that team itself, there’s a lot of I don’t want to touch service from experiences I’ve seen because a lot of them think that’s not my job. So you’ll have a product person like an actual product owner. They’ll be like, oh, no, it’s not my job to know service. Then you go the UX person. My job to know service like the mapping as well. And then and then you get this tension happening. It’s not.
Ben
I look, I actually think that’s consent to the language that we use because and it’s the. Same with product. Products to an actual customer out there is a physical thing that I buy often and we talk about. Product can be and where Turkey internally can be. The thing that I manage. Or the thing that I might build and so you’ve got product marketing, you’ve got product ownership with. If you’re working in banks and financial, that’s the actual physical product that you’re selling. So it might be the everyday bank savings account, but you’ll have a product manager that’s managing the customer experience really. And then you’ll have product design. And then you’ll have service design and you’ll have service and operations and service design is not the operational service, it’s about the service of an entirety around a customer and the ecosystems that you’re work. And I do think in this is just me, the words that we use and This is why it’s hard when you’re finding for jobs, you know the drop downs, you know, bank sales, what what, what is your job that you do? You know we’re not annotated list of things out there because we fit in a world where we’ve used words to.
Susan
Oh.
Ben
Shorten words is really as I am a product. I’m a specialist that looks at products and uses service and design to create outcomes for a business and a customer. But I’ve just got that a product manager or a service designer. So it’s very hard to explain it to your grandmother. What those two words are. But I could easily say I’m head of operations or I am a call centre specialist and I fit into this drop down that with the bank house me because it is actually a category of work. Ours is used multiple categories and becomes hard and it crosses over that. Language crosses.
Susan
Exactly. And I think that that leads us into our next discussion point. How do these two roles intersect and why is it essential to ensure both are adequately covered within an organisation because. As you said there, there is some connection there. Naturally that occurs, but you also want to make sure the right people are making decisions and you don’t have two people at loggerheads over it.
Ben
For example, I I think what has happened and this is my observation of the years of working in financial institutions or anywhere that is every time you say we need service. Design people think. Oh, this is a huge big thing. A blueprint is massive and it’s because consultancies use service design and they owe for me a lot of the time they overdo it. They take too long on it and it becomes this thing that is this massive document that’s hard to manage. Product managers, that what we do when we’re looking at.
Ben
Some actually do parts and service design. We do customer journeys, we do jobs to be done. It’s all part of it. We work with the BA to process, map out stuff that we’re working in tech to see how it all works. We intersect with intersect with UX designers and UI because we’re looking at the customer experience here. And it’s an awkward one because everyone’s gone. Well, services designers, what consultants do to see what all the problems are of the business. But it can be used for small things. Big things. It fits a product manager I think should be learning service design because it’s a core to know your business, who you’re operating with and everything that touches around it. You X need to do a bit of service design. They already do a bit, learn more, but I think it fits in the product management group because whatever product you’re delivering. You’re you’re really. There to enable your internal customers. So you need to know how it’s going to operate. If you want to talk to it about a new function that you’ve created this whole new tool and I’m going to go back to booking because it’s in my head, they’re going to need how to manage it and maintain it. And you’re going to want to enhance it in the future. You need to know those tools you’re not.
Ben
This me in it the specialist, but you have enough around it. So when also when IT want to change things on you, if you’re working in an enterprise or your developer wants to do something and you’re in a small startup or a team wants to change. You have the knowledge to work back with that UX. Come along with you on the journey with you and you really need to involve them. They’re not a separate function. Service designers involving everyone, there’s lots of different ways you can do it through workshops or, you know, quick conversations. You can map it out really quickly. A mirror if you want, but it’s. The key to that, and it is a product management function I think is missing and people don’t learn it. It’s the ability to focus it outwardly from the point that you’re starting with how they come in, how they’re going to go out and understand that environment around a person or a customer. So that you know that the point in the middle is at the right, do you need to shift? That a little bit. Do you need to shift it away because otherwise product can fail.
Susan
Exactly. And that’s where you really need to get all those smees involved to to help you making the the best decisions possible and bringing and bubbling up all those potential opportunities, whether they’re new product development or fixing a feature or whatever it could be because without their input, you’re still flying a bit. Lined without all that data coming in.
Ben
Too now I’ve watched. SMEs can be dangerous, but they can be advantageous to you, but the problem is a lot of I’ve seen and the work that I’ve done is a lot of product or people. Well, in organisations go ohh, they just know too much and they’re not allowed us to move forward, so they avoid them at the start. The the trick I found with knees, especially when they’ve been there for long, that they’re going to go through what I call the seven stages of grief. If you tell them you’re. Changing something on them. For anyone, they’re going to either avoid, they’re going to help or they’re going to tell you all the problems, but you’ve got to listen through that. And that’s using empathy. What people often get confused as empathy and sympathy, and the reason they avoid them is because people are learning, leaning into sympathy. So the reason I avoid is me, that’s going to tell me too much and I’m going to be weighted. I’m I’m actually leaning into my head voice that’s saying ohh. I’ve gotta listen to all their problems and I don’t have time for that. Empathy is OK. Let’s walk through. Let them talk through this. Find the Golden Nugget and then maybe they’ve got something. Let’s involve them at the right point so that they feel like they’re part of the journey or that they feel valued. Because the worst thing is every project or product I’ve ever been to, that’s avoided a smear. *. Ends up being crushed by them at the end. You didn’t find the Golden Nugget and they’re going to turn around to you on a tape of testing. Cause you’re gonna ask them to test it cause it’s a new function and they go. This does not work because of this and you.
Agree.
Susan
Didn’t understand that I completely agree and I’ve seen this road wreck myself.
Susan
And it I suppose it’s one of those hard lessons you potentially learn yourself along your career as well. Having taken advice from, say, managers on how to deal with things. And then you’ve realised how. Shrew who I should not. Have followed their advice, so then you’ve gone your own path in the future and amended how you do things.
Ben
Input. Sometimes you have to go down that because you have. Got pressure from. The top or you’ve been you’re you’re. You might be a business analyst doing this and and you got a project management group that has deadline. Things and or there is other things happening around that same group that you may not be aware of. They may be being completely cut as a function, but you have to push a little bit. You have to find out what’s happening. You have to be inclusive because it enables you to really look at a customer on the other end and. That’s a lot of. All this is empathy, which I lean into, and I think that word is being used. Everybody goes. I’m empathetic. You’re not empathetic. You’re just. Understanding someone because you understand how emotions work.
Susan
Yeah, emotional intelligence is definitely something that is growing more and more. I’m finding, particularly with the new ways of work and how consumers are now driving some of the demands for product and how it gets evolved within organisations. But for those that don’t have any EQ, I think they’re the ones that are failing themselves a little bit myself personally, because they’re missing out on some opportunities that they may have blinkers on about by being so maybe rash or harsh and how they talk or deal with people and situations.
Ben
And I think that’s true. But on the reverse side, we have to. This is where empathy is not. It’s different from sympathy or with passwords, right? To be the same and to be impartial, is not empathetic. You. Everyone has personalities. Everyone has ways of talking. Ohh yes, some people can be really harsh and yeah, we don’t want that in a work environment. There’s differences when you know that’s not right, but if you figure that that’s the personality of the person. And you can work within that. Then little bit, because otherwise all you’re doing is sitting there and and looking at a person and judging them rather than trying to just listen to what’s being told to you and find it and nugget and move on. Don’t waste your energy.
Ben
It’s always an interesting thing because and I, you know, I work with people a lot. A lot of people don’t like. Like, I’m quite often being in companies and they go, oh, I don’t like that person. And a lot of people don’t. And it’s you hear all the gossip. And I actually enjoy them. I find them. Yes. I don’t agree with some of their behaviours, but I find them far more interesting. Or there’s a reason I like that, and what goal can I come out? And sometimes the other best stakeholders, because I know they’re problematic. But I’m on their good side.
Susan
And you’re listening. I like to call that approach the chameleon approach. I I talk to my teams about it as well for situation. Where you, you know you’re not gonna be acting your. 100% authentic self because you do have to bend a little bit, but it’s a way that you’re still being authentic, but you’re listening and reacting to that person’s needs so that they feel comfortable in the situation. So you get the best outcome.
Ben
I think this you’ve mentioned just then you know you’re not leaning on your authentic self, but you can’t that is actually authentic self. You’ve just not recognised it. And the more the more that you do that, it will self reflect on yourself as well. I always do. I’m not 100% the best person, my job, my work is not 100% all the time because I’m learning all the time. But if I can reflect back when things go wrong or how people are and then change because we develop and then that.
Susan
Potentially.
Ben
Actually becomes my authentic self. It’s not two faced, which is what a lot I use some straight up language all the time and and I do swear, but I won’t on this podcast. Straight up language puts a person exactly where they are. Wheels if you. Divert around. So I always say that this is authentically who I am. OK, I’m listening. I don’t always agree, but that actually is human. That’s authentic for me to listen to somebody else. It’s not natural for me to sometimes not interrupt. Or get annoyed. But if I practise it, it becomes more of.
Susan
Yeah, I I understand that point there as well, I suppose. For me I’m, I’m comparing my work self to my everyday self.
Ben
Right now I have. Interesting take on that, but continue.
Susan
And that and that’s where I am. To a small degree, a little bit different at work and how I engage with stakeholders than I would with, say, my best friend, and they know how I call them up and my little catch phrase as I say to them, they would not be appropriate at. Work.
Ben
I think no. I have always been who I am. There’s no difference for me outside or internally inward. And this came back from years ago of doing the the, UM, women and gender and art representation and the famous studies they did. But I was working with Mike Tudor was Germaine Greer at that point. But to be authentically yourself, you have to be authentic within whatever environment and yes, professionalism. Is this word it’s. A buzzword or you have to be professional address.
Ben
But find who you are in that professionalism and keep with it, because if you are a very different person and work compared. To outside of. Work you will struggle because either what will ever happen is your friendship group will start to devalue you because you’re so invested in this different character at work that you become. Grossed and work or the reverse happens out and people meet you outside or they go. I don’t really know who this person is.
Ben
And being professional is just actually a normal human person. You know, if I am courteous to people at work or reflect on who they are, but I’ve always had this thing I’m going to talk to the CEO regardless of my position is all the way down because it’s a human. You are not my boss out of work. Work is an environment. I respect you. I’m not gonna go and wander up and. Hey, mate, how was your weekend and things? But I’m gonna naturally will talk to you as a human being. And that’s why I have this thing that I don’t believe there’s actually two different. There’s a work self and a home. Well, I’m just who I am. But how do I behave in the right environment? How do I reflect with people? How do I continue to be my authentic self throughout that whole journey so they know and trust me in both situations?
Susan
And I think that’s where I say, like, I’m only just a slight degree of it. I I still remember a very clear example where I used to work at. ABC and we’d had a fire evacuations. Everyone had to come out the building. And as we’re coming back in after waiting quite a while, you can imagine how many thousands of people. I was waiting for the lift and I was next in and the lift opened and it shouldn’t have opened because they’re trying to do an express lift with a very famous broadcast on radio. Very, very famous broadcaster. Very controversial one as well, that most people on the street will probably want to go up and punch.
Ben
Yeah.
Susan
And I just walked in.
Ben
This is, but I’ll ask you afterwards.
Susan
And I I just merely walked in and everyone that I worked with in my team. Just stood back and watched the doors close on the three of us because it was the secretary. Me and this person and the secretary comes up to me and she goes. How did you get? Yeah. And I’m like, well, the door opens and she goes, OK, the lock myself be working. So I just turned around and started talking. To this guy. I’m like. So what brings? You here today and we just had this random conversation in the lift, but I was still very surprised that no one else considering how long the queue have been, how long been waiting to get back upstairs.
Ben
Yeah.
Susan
In even though the doors clearly opened.
Ben
Yeah. And look, there are people that would jump into their left and should not be the way that they’ll talk person. I think you’ve done it with respect and that’s that’s the whole thing. You’re not there for something advantageous to me, which is inauthentic, as well as trying to get something, or you’re using someone for a purpose, you become more authentic. And it can. Reflect and it’s not a good look at work. As well and. You have to respect things. Yeah, I mean, and I think all of this reflects back to service design again because you were learning to do it throughout a whole organisation, you, you’re learning to do it through how all customers look at you or are looking at using a service, what’s going on with them. Part of service design jobs to be done comes up a lot. MHM. And product management uses that we all look at what’s the job to be done for the person that wants to boil the. Household.
Ben
Right. And we go, oh, the job. The job is they’ve got to fill the kettle. The job is they’ve got to have running water. Job is they’ve got to turn the kettle on. The job is they’ve got to get a cut. The job is they gotta cut, get a tea bag. No, the job is they need to have time in their day. The job is the emotional thing is they want the reason they want to have a cuppa.
Susan
What’s the list?
Ben
Is a moment to either relax or feel energised. So you look at emotional jobs around what the person is doing because. If you build a kettle. And they have to do all this thing, and it’s absolutely spady. You’re not giving any enjoyment to it. So you know, what are those things that could have a reminder like, you know, have you got the tea back or it’s already putting a tea, you put the tea bag in the pot. You know, so it takes time out. So you’re finding new ways and products. Product does that through a way of looking at jobs to be done. Designs a product. Service design looks at it in a greater level and goes what’s the enjoyments around it? What are the ways that they get to it, and then you might look at? A whole it’s. Creates a new solution. One thing I’ve found with product is solutions are already in people’s heads.
Ben
And there’s great things like crazy eights. People do that to come up with ideas, but you’re creating a solution. You’re not looking at what’s the piece around it? What does the person really want? And if you’ve already got a solution in your head. You’re going to find it very hard to divert from that solution. It’s product management because you’re set in your way. You know, that’s always the way it is.
Susan
And I think that that comes down to our next discussion point here about thinking more about understanding the customer needs. And having a distinction between how you can utilise personas versus archetypes. So are you able to to give us some? Discussion points around this one about how organised organisations should use these effectively.
Ben
Look, I think personas has been a buzzword. And they’ve been over you. So an organisations going, oh, we only have three because it’s the maximum you need from a UX thinking or it’s all I need. And these are our core personas we use. This is Jim and he’s 6. He’s in the 16 to 25 market and Jim has a bank balance of 45,000. Jim has got a job and he’s. Got two kids? And now little. So he uses the app all the time or his digital set.
Ben
But archetypes, the biggest difference is the information that’s being presented on what you’re looking and personas have a human face and a name of biographical information, so they try to make. Them a real person. Whereas archetypes are tidal image illustrating core behaviours of a group of people because. If you singular down quite a lot and you use personas, there’s nothing wrong with them. You become stuck on a person, which is often the way that I see this particular German who’s 45, because I know a gym that’s 45 like that. So you’re not able to look outside of your own context, whereas an archetype as we have, there’s a lot of group of men, they range in age from 45 to 65, they have various bank balances, they’re up and down in jobs they you know, they’re between Queensland, NSW. And northern territories. So it opens the mind. A little bit more to look at. A group which? Is still the same as what you’ve done with designer, but it’s not singular to. There it’s become more open, so people actually in some ways can use archetypes and relate to broader people rather than using my mindset, which is, I know, a singular journal. It’s 45. You got actually. Oh, yeah, I know a couple of guys like that, but they all relate slightly different, right. They’re slightly different behaviours. So you’re opening up. To be A and also putting yourself out of a situation which I call the white Ivory tower. I work from Sydney. I’ve watched. This everyone that does, personas everyone in the customer journeys you’re actually thinking of the environment that you’re working in and you’re stuck in Sydney, even though that says that the person is in, you know, Jim’s 45 and he lives in the Blue Mountains, you’re still thinking Sydney. So you think all your access roads are really easy. You know, I’ve done this for a bank. Here we looked at customs all the way across northern territories all the way up into Broome, outside the areas and all they could think of is we’ve gotta have this sent back to us within six weeks. And that’s perfect time because everybody in my environment in Sydney, the White Tower. They have. If you open it to a broader group, if we we have people across Australia, some are in regions where there’s no access to Val and it takes us. So you’re giving more demographic, more information, enough. You’re going to shift and go well actually six weeks. The person that’s sitting way up in in the Outback, the Mail’s not going to get delivered. The service design will help you with this. Is going to map all this sort of thing out. How the customer discovers your product? Done. I’m going to get it and we’re going to close the bank account on them because they’ve only just got the mail. They may be doing off the site, so you’ve gotta give them more time. How have they? How? If they have got it and we have closed, how do they react to it? Because there’s not a bank nearby. But because you’ve sat in your white ivory tower in Sydney and you’ve reflected on a persona and you’ve attached it to how you think, because it’s in your own environment, you’ve forgotten everything else around. So I like archetypes, you can use archetypes as well, not just on people. If you’re doing enterprise change or you’re doing a business transformation, what are the common archetypes of our business units? What are the common archetypes of our enterprise group make up, you know, so what’s the small business? What’s a big business? What’s that? What’s the common denominators so that you can learn to shift in value?
Ben
And that’s Michael. Further, personas are helpful when you’re talking to a marketing person. And you might be great for using when you’re doing a developer, but believe me, most developers I’ve worked with never care about the persona. And so it’s just a marketing tool for me. I do use them, but I help, I help with an archetype first. These are the archetypes. These are common behaviours. These people have been using digital for 15 years, but they’re not quick learners.
Ben
These people are young, they are a quick learner. These this group of people will use both a phone and a mobile and also they’ll won’t do things in straight away because everybody goes. They use their mobile and it really thinks on a mobile. They’ll quickly accept. No, this group of people will look on the mobile, they’ll go home, they’ll save it, they’ll come back, they’ll go on to their desktop with their their laptop when they’re at home because they’re watching a film and they might do a little bit of work and they might be on the side. So it’s not going to take 30 minutes. For them to apply for this, it’s probably going to take a week. But they’re gonna use all different designs.
Susan
I think one of the things is where we’re going back to the Persona example is I think a lot of people do just cut it too short.
Ben
Yeah.
Susan
There are other ways that you can make personas more valuable, and that’s by actually looking out at your mosaic profiling and and pieces like that. That can actually help you with those more cohorts and group understanding for behaviour. And then that’s actually in many cases a universal language. When you’re talking to certain. And businesses that are helping you along the way with whatever you’re building because then they can understand, OK, we can then help with this or this because we know they’re these type of people.
Ben
Absolutely. But what I would challenge everyone on that, the problem with the Persona and is using the word gym and the male is you’re going to use conscious bias on the person that’s doing it. So no matter what you’re trying to show a different ways, your conscious biassing on groups of people and it can actually conscious biassing. Is leading into a bit of discrimination without people realising it’s not. So if you remove things or challenge so for example, years ago we did a lot of this and they had a lot of different people’s. Personas and. We, you know, it was to do with access and to buildings. So of course we’re. Going to have wheelchair access. And we’re going to have this and then they colour colour the people. We don’t. So we had a white person, we had Asian, we had African American. But where they put the disadvantage and I challenged them, so they put the person in a wheelchair as African American and I was like, look what that is not a white person because guess well, you’re conscious biassing a white person on a wheelchair. Unfortunately, as you’re going to favour them, the African American, you’ve doubled disadvantage. So move that into a hiding with challenge the conscious bias of what people are looking at things with. If you’re going to do a persona like that. Because you the reason for a persona is to make people think outside their box. It’s not to make them think exactly how they think or I challenge always on that.
Susan
And I think there’s also a bit of confusion in some cases about personas, because some some people just think they’re more of a branding tool and that’s actually this human you’ve made, we’ll call it Sam. She’s 25, from Penrith or whatever, blah, blah, blah blah. All those details filled.
Susan
In and the little squares. Some people get confused that that is not that is going to be the. Brand. Voice of the company or the brand or the product? Yeah, it isn’t. It’s a piece in the puzzle to help with the development of the product or service. There is a completely different piece that is part of the brand that tells you the tone of the brand and everything like that. That’s a completely different document. Completely different use, but people are getting confused that I’m finding about that as well that they think that this persona is how I need to talk now as a brand. No, no, no, no, no. That’s helping you understand your target market, but it’s not telling you how you should actually have your brand talking.
Ben
Yeah, but that’s why I prefer archetype. So both do the same thing, but one is broader. It has a lot more information. You can also use it in organisation. So you’re not talking to the reliability researcher, Rachel, right? But you can talk to the researcher. You could create an archetype that’s called the researcher and the common behaviours of the reliant. You could go the reliable researcher, the sporadic researcher that archetypes, also there’s personas. As soon as you sort of like.
Susan
Hmm.
Ben
Customer quotes and things like that, but you’re attaching A persona with a. Person it’s an index.
Susan
Hmm. You pictured it already.
Ben
Let’s. You’re pitched and you’re conscious, biassed. It’s very marketing. There’s a lot of resistance to it, because it’s especially in product because it’s like, but we already do that in marketing. We already know or. You know, why are you doing that? Like you know that’s not what you should be doing in your job product. We need more things. From you archetypes maybe. Help because you don’t get that resistance as well. You know, they kind of go. Oh, that’s great. It’s pretty much the same, but slightly different. It’s I found it’s so much more easier to use. With with the C-Suite, they understand it more. They don’t go. This is just buzz cause the C-Suite or on outcomes, so you’re able to say this is all the research this is, it’s really being concise in a way and it’s not being biassed on nature personas. They’re just sometimes to me. Look, I love them, but they really are a marketing.
Susan
Yeah, and they can be also outdated very quickly.
Ben
Very quickly, I mean, especially when you some when a name becomes old fashioned, you know surely surely the speedy researcher, it’s like, oh, I haven’t had a Shirley, the last Shirley I knew. Was my Nana well you? See what can happen in that. So that’s why I prefer, I mean. And I think that’s very valuable, but I think it’s knowing your audience.
Susan
And that and that goes into. So knowing your audience does make an impact to success for both the product management and the service. Can we talk a bit more about the initiatives that could help this when we’re thinking about the audience and its impact?
Ben
Do you want to repeat that question again?
Susan
So knowing your audience and that has a huge impact on both the success for product management, also service management. So what kind of initiatives are there that we can do? To. Help with knowing our audience.
Ben
I think the way I always reflect back to just stakeholder management to. Start with Donald. You know, go and introduce yourself. Let them know what you’re trying to achieve. Have a coffee with them. Build a relationship and poor and find out the issues they already have. It could be nothing to do with the project or the product that. You’re. Working on bring them into. But they want to help. You and then you can start those initiatives are like. Small workshops with. The core cream. Let’s just break. Let’s still workshop and breakdown all the issues you have in this area. Let’s map them into this initiative, see where they could fit in. So you may know they may not. They that helps them discover where they may not. They might also help them go well. We should spin something else. Up over here so I always kind of do that, I think. Product and service designed to reflect on the same piece at this point, but it really is core as you know, knowing your audience is actually how do you find out about your audience and also if you ask the person working next to you or what is the stakeholder like, what’s this group like? You’re going to be consciously biassed by them if you’re if you are persons all that troublesome, they always bring up her shoes, or that’s a really hard stakeholder. You can never get. Hold of them.
Yeah, I.
Ben
Yes, it’s important to understand, especially if you’re new into an area, but sometimes just reach out, start doing the thing yourself, go who do I need to talk to? OK, they are bad, but let me change that. I don’t think they’re like that. Let me see. So yeah, change your attitude as well. Somebody says something negative about somebody.
Susan
Coffee’s great.
Ben
To you or a group, or it’s gonna be hard work. OK, OK, cool. But let us change that. How can we do that? I’m gonna make this happen, you know? So you’re starting positive. Thinking of yourself?
Susan
Exactly. And. And I just find coffee sometimes just makes a difference. Get away. If if you’re in an environment where you can actually physically go out somewhere. Yeah, go out from the office, go down to the local coffee shop. So it’s almost like a neutral ground and just go. Hey.
Ben
I mean, one of the biggest things of that when having a coffee with somebody and look, I’m guilty of doing what I’m going to say not to, but you can start to talk about yourself. Oh, look, I’m here. I just want to have a coffee because I’m doing this project and I’ve got to do this, and I’m the lead service designer. I’m the product manager. I’m going to. Right. So all you’ve used is I a lot and we unconsciously user, we might go. Oh, we’ve got this team. I’ve just joined. It’s great. You might ask them a question or what do you do or. How can I? Be find out about them. Ohh look. It’s really great to meet you. I’ve heard good things about you. Even if you’ve. Heard bad things always start. With that, you’re creating rapport and then listen to them and. If that coffee. Goes way off track and they’re talking about all other stuff. Just listen. Oh, my God, that’s great.
Ben
Hey, I know we didn’t get quite things I’d love to chat more about it. I wanna set up more time. I’ve also got this project going on. I need your help on it, but let’s catch up. So you’re creating a relationship and you. Can do it with groups. People go and sit with them. I mean operate call centres, go and sit with them, go and just down there and do your work and go. I’ll. I’ll learn from this. Way I know. You’re really busy. You.
Susan
Yeah. Don’t double Jack on it. Just listen.
Ben
You know I can’t pull you into big meetings. So how do I put myself in your shoes to find the gold? I’ve done it before and causing as I’ve sat for a whole week just listening to calls and sitting with them on calls and watching and observing rather than pulling them out of functions and putting them into workshops to map things or put PowerPoints. Or, you know, bullet points everywhere on a big surfaces. I’ve sat there and just observed them for a week and that’s the way I’ve got the information. And then later on, when they’ve got time, I’ve showed them what I’ve been doing and they might point things out to me. That time pours sometimes.
Susan
I think with a lot of those discovery pieces and all the opportunities you find. That’s for me, where agiles really come in to help me be able to do better with managing this and having a process for going back and doing refinement. So thinking about how agile methodology contributes to the adaptability and also the responsiveness of both product and service delivery. How do you like that? Was my example of how Agiles assisted with that? Because I really do believe that backlog because you are looking at it so often and refining it and working toward.
Is.
Susan
The end goal that you may have, whatever it is you’re delivering this product and MVP. So you want to choose wherever it might be getting all these people involved, blah, I’ve I find that. Just that process very positive from a product owner point of view because then. It’s kind of like the. Task to be done, but it’s also I can see movement and the whole team has visibility as well. But what are your thoughts?
Ben
I always switch things I don’t agiles a term that envelops many processes like lean 6 Sigma scrub Cam band, task management post it notes. On a wall. There are many processes into it and. It can be an an adherent.
Ben
Of covering the habit are two things at the same time because it’s too fluid, it’s not really how other processes work, so we’re A-Team understands. Then I work with them, where I’m working back in service design with a team that doesn’t. I have to bring them into a slight journey or show outputs that relate to them.
Susan
An inhibitor.
Ben
Because one of the worst things on agile is somebody doesn’t understand what a backlog is and you start talking about a backlog and show them a backlog of tickets. Not just like. Right. They want an outcome. So projects want to know when you might deliver something. So I highly will say we’re looking in this period of coming having an outcome of this, but all this work here that I’m working with you helps me enable at this point I’ll come back and show you what we’ve come through with.
Ben
I love agile and I dislike it because I think in Australia it’s been bastardised.
Susan
Ohh definitely I I I I’m guilty of that too. I use the pieces that make sense, but I also have a very small team.
Ben
It’s also over 20 years old.
Ben
And young people change. People do different things, so I’m always adapting and learning. But you work with an organisation that has it, then you work with that organisation on it. Don’t push the road up. You you can challenge. You can show new ways. You can move things and that might help. But don’t go your way is completely wrong. It’s it’s interesting that kind of conversation we could take that up for a whole other topic, but what was well, see, there was a second point to that question that you asked.
Susan
See adaptability and responsiveness.
Ben
I’ve I’ve seen it respond really well, but the when I’ve seen it respond again, I think it comes back to the point of understanding the unit. Or the group that. I’m going to work with to then take that activity in, but also the way that I monitor it is a lot of agile which is delivery focused. And points or I’ve got a backlog and I’ve got outcomes. The outcome is I’ve got this released. Which can turn into frustrations for people because that’s a feature factory and then you’re not doing right, you’re just, you know, not saying that you do that season in your way, but. I I monitor by the emotional talents of a team or the breakthrough I’m having with a stakeholder group because it could be a month of frustrations. But then that moment, there’s the aha moment. They start to turn around. That’s the piece that I say is success, not the fact that I’ve got all the requirements. Because I know that the next step is going to be easier where I can manage that and I think that again comes down to empathy and learning and. But social people management and people leaders often misstep doing that. I’ve watched that and organisations were doing business transformation and people management. When they’re monitoring that the person and the group is picking up agile and the group is doing it, they and they have deadlines and dates. That’s not people management. Good teams are made up of multiple personalities, multiple ways that they work, things how they achieve it, and you’re you’ve gotta gauge one person can pick it up with it a week, one person. I have challenges on the third week. You’ve got people. Management is, how do I do the best for them? How do I make the team work? Not how do I? Dictate. And.
Susan
107.
Ben
And the word dictate, but I find that a lot of agile practises aren’t dictating and they monitor it by how many points you have in the backlog, how many tickets you’ve got this when have you got done this done and that’s dictatorship. And it’s micro management, whether people. Say it is or not. Not the way is OK. The person here. You didn’t get it? I do need the user stories by this point for the development team or I do need the service design map to a level. What’s the outcome? When can I have it? OK, what are? What are you struggling with? Where can I help you with it? OK, well, what’s the way we can do it and then the maturity and the level of that. For the development cause I I. Yeah, I struggle with that. I do think a lot of managers are saying whether they want to use the word. Or. Not don’t realise they’re dictating.
Ben
They don’t do. Because they’re monitoring by a output on a spreadsheet or they’re monitoring by an output. Of a a. Document to where they should be looking at. What’s the insights together or what’s the output that I will have not the physical like a word doc. Tell me all the requirements. Do I have the gym? How can I speak to it? Cause also you’ve gotta remember your manager above. You often has to talk about that as well. Those Nuggets to how to transform them? I mean, there is also times when you’re going, OK this person. Is lazy. Is. They’re not getting that, or maybe we need where they could be better situated. And then sometimes you have to micromanage and some and sometimes you have to do as a leader being dictatorship. In some ways, it’s nothing wrong with it. It’s using the wrong elements or not recognising what I’m doing it myself.
Susan
Hmm. And that was one of the things that I really tried to push when I was doing squad type work and still am is the individual should be able to tell me how long it’s going to take. I shouldn’t tell them because they know their work best. So therefore adding that into the process as well that they put that ownership. I will get this back to you by XYZI will come back to you if I need more help or clarification. I will also have ownership if I need to go out to someone else to assist me with this. Yeah, but I will commit to ABC and and that’s how I try and foster my teams. Is you own it? I’ll help you with the first run of it.
Susan
To say it’s something that we repeat over and over again, but they’ve never done it before. I’ll help you with that first iteration, but the rest of it they’ll start. They’ll start being free. Have your wings. And be creative. Strive to be more strategic with it. Now, how can we improve this to be different, but also at the same time know what we need to deliver at the end as well and? What information we need to share?
Ben
Yeah. And also into that, it’s like when, what, when I’m asking stuff and I’ve seen this where I’ve been a business analyst as well and project managers are going by this date. I need the user stories, how many user stories are we going to have? Have you assessed the user stories? And I’m like, I don’t know, this is right at the start of project user stories, epics, but OK in the next week. I’m gonna go. OK. The next week, you need to block the. Yeah. There’s other tasks and stuff so that are happening, so I’m like, well, I’ll raise or teach other BA’s raise up the other things you have and go. What is the more important here? And I do. Sometimes you’ve got two managers I can groups like this or sometimes scrims. You got two product managers. Hmm. OK, what’s the most important? I need help opening this.
Susan
Prioritise.
Ben
Otherwise, it’s actually your time. A week. It’s actually two weeks cause. It’s not like. Capability as a person to write these or do them. It’s the capacity I have outlined, it’s helping and managing that expectations around.
Susan
And what other pitfalls do you see when it comes to or misconceptions when it comes to service delivery and organisations?
Ben
I think there’s a big misconception that operations on service and it’s a misconception that from big projects that vizios and process maps will do it all you know and. They don’t. These misconceptions that this unit owns this way of working, so I’ve seen where OK in operations you need to have lean 6 Sigma expert and but over here in delivery is Scrum delivery. You know the two philosophies between Scrum and Lean do not work and product management doesn’t really work. Very well with. Link 6 Sigma because product managers are taught to think. All around and above. And lean is taught to go and assess and quickly come with an output which is actually what service design does as well. It’s recommendations and things that can be changed quickly or service design goes. Also like a product manager. What is the future? I I think that is my biggest pet for is when people dictate how it should be. I’ve worked with some brilliant. I was working with super the brilliant. Lean 6 SEC. My master and Veronica. She was amazing because she could take my way of thinking and we could cross because it was the same problems with solving more it together. But she had an understanding or if she didn’t, I walked her through what I was thinking and why and. You can have. Debates don’t walk away the debates. That’s the big. Downfall I see as people do not like to debate or argue.
Ben
Or. Have problematic problems within their group or their way of working because it’s all gotta work smoothly. Guess what? It’s not right. And aren’t human. A person being stubborn, having issues like that which creates dialogue which creates people going off of thinking? Or how can we solve this issue where we have two people not working well together?
Susan
No opinions.
Ben
For two different. Thinkers it’s going to enable creativity. It’s enabling people to move and develop and it’s you actually don’t service design on a person there. It creates it. But if you dictate how it should work again and it’s going to be all lean or this person has got it and we don’t understand your point of view, that’s the downfalls. If it’s going to project things. That’s a downfall.
Susan
And I think also sometimes it comes down to. If you’re in that beginning phase, you you actually don’t know to start actually peeling away all the different layers of the organisation to be able to do service delivery, because sometimes some people will hold that information and you’ve got to try and get through there on those barriers to get the information you need.
Ben
And I think that is a profile of saying the service design work and there’s a big consultancies do it right, they start and they peel the layers like you said everywhere. Haven’t started with. Is an objective and the first thing I love to do, and that it’s not really service design, is good. What’s your value proposition business and start from there, not OK. It’s not KPI. What is your value proposition of this organisation? What is it OK? Does it need to rethink because you’re challenging it? Like, how do I? That’s one. Of. The fits to help my thoughts come about. How can I put a plan together? Because what’s the issues in there if I start from different channels and start mapping, I become too ingrained and that is. I if that’s the big consultancies, do that and you know you end up with these massive services side deliveries, you’re making all these backlog of things for delivery change this this strategy changes up, it’s not building a strategy that’s just throwing bricks and mortar at everybody and and saying this is broken, this is broken, this is broken. This is broken.
Susan
Burning out? Too.
Ben
And and it makes people devalue you cause any other problem if you say, look, if we change this or I’ve noticed this here we need to adjust it like I think we do have it and. And I I need to concentrate in here because I need to solidify it. There is nothing wrong with showing up failures and organisations, but do it the right way. Don’t do it where it’s like, basically. And that’s why they don’t make sense. So here is a map of all your issues here where you’re going wrong, you know. No. Here is where we see opportunity. Here is where and do it at a high level.
Ben
When you bring it at a level, is enough. Where do you work? Concentrate work with your C-Suite and go. OK. I’ve remapped this. If you’re working with project managers or product managers and they’re trying to get a timeline with you, usually this can take me 6 months sometimes or three months. It can take me 12 weeks. It could take me a week. But I need to know enough to come back to you and go. This is how we’ll do. It and these are the expectations.
Susan
Exactly. Exactly. No, no, I think. That’s exactly how it is. It’s working together, that collaborative piece to make it all one ecosystem together.
Ben
So call out like one thing that I’ve seen is a pitfall where everybody goes. Yeah, but, and this is your weights will say the same thing. Oh, we’ve got the voice of the customer. We’ve got all the complaints, we’ve got everything. And this is, I mean, people love us. And I’m like, that’s not true customer feedback. That is feedback that you use learning.
Susan
It’s only a tiny portion.
Ben
I love bad feedback by the way, and I love to know. I learned it’s back on retail days. You can know when someone is a complainer and you ignore the complaint. And I found those organisations. They don’t know how to do that because a marketing manager will see all these complaints and this is really bad and they’ll go, oh, we need to fix this. You don’t need to.
Susan
Nature. MHM. And it’s just one complaint that comes down to you. Find out just one complaint from 1 Rando and the world’s on fire.
Ben
It’s gonna be 24. It will be. 20 How always doing this so they’re always that? Problem. Yes, that’s. If you go back to your value. Proposition of the business. It’s not a core person that we want here and is there an issue? No. And you learn to ignore? It’s the same with people that love all your things you. Do the reverse that. Just that, just the sycophant sometimes. And they they wanna, you know, do it. And so you’re you’re going into this world that we’re amazing and there’s nothing wrong with doing Anthony Robbins, rah, rah, rah. I’m the best. Well, but again, are you being a cult, so going through that and then you, it’s so great. I want to talk to real people. I want to hear what they’re actually doing. I want to watch them do something. You just interviews and they’re always tell us you. Well, if I can watch the person doing it, I’ll find out really what the problem is if I ask them the questions.
Ben
I’m not really getting, I’m just asking them how I’m. I think that’s the one thing I always as downfall is learning to not ask questions that lead to the answer that you want. Good to find the data. So is this really true? How can I prove that I’m completely wrong? Right? Because I will often make a statement saying I don’t think customers are doing that.
How are you?
Ben
For doing this, but can you prove me wrong? Prove me wrong or prove me that doing something else? And using that and service design needs to work with UX and product designers, but I product designers or product management needs to develop service design as a core part of the business of their business of what products, what value it brings to the business. Because as you heard at the moment product design. The product management, everyone’s moving them out of the businesses at the moment cause and everyone’s worried, but I think it’s cause you you need to show the value that you bring and it’s not just the value that I’m the glue between the mortar or or that I help think of products or no the value is. You bring all this together, you know how the ecosystems, you understand your customers. That’s why UX and it are bigger. Enterprises always stay there because UX can know the customer and it can know the functions. But you’re the product manager in the middle going well. I just, I know the products, I know who I need to sell to, but they go well, why do we need you? Developers with this so with that. And really bring that ethos into it and bring service design encompass yourself across the business.
Susan
Yeah, I I completely agree. And and it is definitely. Something I think that’s missing for some product managers. They don’t know how to do that, making them shine.
Ben
Yeah.
Susan
I have loved this conversation. I do have my one final question I need to ask you and I ask everyone what brand any brand at all best represents you and why and it can be.
Ben
Yeah.
Susan
More than one.
Ben
So lot brands and multiple I you know, I’ve dug out but me to think about the city, but I’m going to go a bit diversion on you. My friend is Elizabeth Taylor.
Susan
OK, you’re going with the. You’re the first person to pick.
Ben
Yeah.
Susan
A person I like this.
Ben
It there’s, I mean there’s multiple people I love. I. Mean and I always look to people for different things, but I love her ability to admit when she’s wrong, her things to always encompass who she is, always and be unapologetic for it. Now, that doesn’t mean you don’t apologise when you’re wrong or you do something, be unapologetically mean. Living where I want to live. Doing the same thing through wherever I work. I am who I am. Bigger that ballsy. At the same time, you know, fight for what you believe and and I think she’s always accompany, you know, encompasses that whole piece. I was just trying to find your a really good quote from her.
Ben
And I’m just gonna. You know herb, famous quote is I don’t write one of them. I don’t pretend to be an ordinary housewife. There’s nothing wrong with the housewife.
Susan
Particularly that era, though, that really resonates very strongly.
Ben
Even now, like it’s more I I am who I am. I’m not thing and I think that’s that’s who. And I’d say that’s a neat loss of me. I mean, there’s many more you. Could ask for. Gucci. He’s the Laurent. I mean, at the same time, if you’re asking on beers and drink some before it’s gold and a Victoria, but it’s like.
Susan
I love it.
Ben
I love my chardonnays from the 90s and don’t give me shampooers or sparkling wine. I’m all champagne.
Susan
I love that because. We are jigsaw puzzles. We’ve got multiple pieces, some of them are identical, some of them aren’t, and I love it that you. Really thought through.
Ben
Contradictions to ourselves. Sometimes you know. But that’s again why I love Elizabeth Taylor unapologetically. Her breath osey beautiful looking, but at the same time can just take their Mickey out of herself. I mean. And if you want to watch a really, really good film, go watch who’s afraid.
Ben
Of Virginia Woolf.
Susan
I’ve read the book and I think I watched it as well. Back at school as well.
Ben
Brilliant film. Asia season.
Susan
No, thank you. And do you? Have any final thoughts on service? Delivery that you’d like to share with the audience before we jump off.
Ben
I think my final thoughts is every organisation needs to start looking at product and service design as being part of it and I do think think where it sits and how it operates. And you know, bring it in, make it a natural piece of the business.
Susan
Completely agree, and it’s definitely something that’s missing in a lot of organisations.
Ben
And guess what? Service design can be used on organisational transformations. It doesn’t have to be on customer, it can be how your C-Suite operates together. It can be how your teams are layered. You know it’s many things. But if you bring that in, you’re a win everywhere.
Susan
Exactly. No, I appreciate this conversation. Ben, you have been amazing. And to everyone else out there, don’t forget to follow more to marketing for more great podcasts and guests like Ben today.
Ben
I’m going to give a little plug. Don’t forget to. Also on Thursdays you can hear me on Cory Radio on 93.7 FM. I think that’s right. And on a programme called Pulham port Planes, which I also do, which has nothing to do with product and service, everything’s Kiwi.
Susan
No a problem if you have a link, I’ll drop that in as well. So check that out so that you’ve got the link to go straight there and listen all to Ben.
Ben
Is there?
Susan
More to marketing.
