More 2 Marketing

Susan
More to marketing. Welcome to more to marketing, a podcast on marketing, product and everything in between. I’m your host, Susan, and today I have a very special guest. I have Richard here with me, who is a huge, huge enthusiast of all things connecting CX marketing and digital together to make the best experience possible. He’s worked for some of the biggest brands across Australia and also the Asia Pacific region and has a huge passion on how to actually bring that knowledge into Australia and reshape it. But let’s talk to Richard himself. Welcome, Richard.
Richard
Hey, Susan. How you doing? Great to be here.
Susan
Thank you so much. I’m so glad to have you here. Now, would you mind telling us a bit about yourself and your background?
Richard
Yeah, sure. So I’ve been working in and around marketing for nearly 30 years, which is absolutely terrifying when you stop and think about it. Basically, I know it creeps up on you as well. It’s a bit.
Susan
I know what you mean.
Richard
Terry, I’ve pretty much got 3 chapters to my career, so I I left university with a degree in biology which to the all I haven’t really used. I then worked in advertising for about 10 years in various agencies both here in Australia and in London and then moved into telco where I met you when we were at at Virgin Mobile. But also work for a couple of other big brands like Vodafone and Optus and then really for the last 10 years, I’ve been in FMCG, which has been really fascinating, particularly in the digital. But it’s I worked for Nestle for for a time and then lately with with Haley on which used to be GSK before they separated in the in the last couple of years and it’s it’s been a fascinating process to talk about digital with those businesses in particular, they’re often considered the last cab off the rank, they don’t have, they’re not washing. Data they don’t have those kind of rich digital services that that other businesses offer. So it’s been really great to be part of those, those companies as they’ve gone through their digital transformation journey.
Susan
And I know you’ve got so many learnings to share with. Us we were going through before about topics for today and you’ve got some really fantastic ones. We’re going to touch on. So from the mobile commerce, dominion of everything with data through social commerce, then a bit about AI and how it can be transformed to potential businesses. Green practises and also the the rise of emerging markets because I think that cross boundary cross border is just growing and growing for a lot of businesses and. Data and E commerce is the heart of it. It has to all be utilising that to actually be successful. But it’s it’s not having a chat in regards to the mobile commerce and its rise or maybe not so great. Rise, what are your thoughts here?
Richard
Yeah, so, so that I’m, I’m going to take a slight step back before we go into mobile commerce, because I think there’s a really important consideration here before we we dive into some of these areas, which is the idea of digital commerce per say, so not E commerce, but digital commerce. This this is a. That really I’ve I’ve kind of hung my hat on. I think it’s a really important distinction and it takes a lot of digital transformation, digital marketing and E commerce and combines those three separate areas into a holistic approach to to really selling products online. And I think that’s that’s really, really important. That, that, that we bear that in mind, it’s not just about getting the consumer aware of the brand or making you aware of the brand, it’s actually getting them to the point that they consider buying the product. And then also after they bought the product, building that relationship with them over time and building advocacy around the brand so. Digital commerce for me is is the the kind of the end to end process within within that mobile marketing or mobile commerce is a really interesting piece. Now as I mentioned before, you know I’ve got a background working in telco. So I’ve kind of watched mobile commerce grow up from within and you know one of the things that I quite often talk about is back in 2007. Show my age. A bit. We tried to launch when I worked at three QR codes to try and drive mobile commerce and to get people to buy products from threes portal off of a piece of paper using a QR code off of a brochure. And of course it didn’t work and now look at us now post pandemic. As COVID and everybody’s kind of caught up and and we understand how to use the QR code and it’s even built into the phone. So I think you know, mobile commerce has had a meteoric rise, but the the foundations were really laid pre iPhone. So 2007 was actually pre. And you know what? I know.
Susan
Amazing to think that cause the Rogers thinks the my phone’s been around forever.
Richard
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I I still remember when, you know it was Nokia 6110 and you know you you have the matrix flip phones that people would be using and all of these phones they did have access to portals and a lot of those behaviours were were kind of built in from from that point. Now when we look at mobile commerce and you know. User experience in particular. Miller, we’ve gone through a process of refining the online experience and shaping it to meet the needs of of, of people that are using the mobile. And you know, there are some key markets in the Asia Pacific region that have led the way in that process. China is clearly one of them. Some of the the work that’s being done by. Large commerce providers like Taobao through Tmall or or. AD you can see that what they do to to to make sure that they are optimising and changing the mobile experiences that they spend a lot of time experimenting and they will, they will try all different pages and they’ll they’ll build optimization queues that over time mean that that experience gets better and better and better and better. So it might be looking at. Manners and buttons and colour and copy and offers, but they’ve they’ve got these very, very intricate optimization cues that allow them to to evolve overtime. Outside of that, we know you know, mobile usage is growing still, which I still find quite breathtaking in some areas. It’s actually peaked and I know we’re going to talk a little bit about emerging markets further down the track. Those are the areas that I think we’re we’re going to see more mobile commerce, you know, really grow. So the likes of Indonesia and the Philippines in particular, we’ll talk about more I’m sure. Later. But they are the markets where you know, really they’re they’re gonna be driving the next wave of of mobile commerce and. And as I say, you know, any any retailer, any platform that has set up an optimization queue, engage with the consumer and begun to think how do I get more from every single interaction. They’re the ones that have really driven. Some of the growth that we’ve seen over the last, the last couple of years.
Susan
I think for myself, watching how mobile has ever. Of. There’s a lot of term use apathy out there because people are just over apps myself. I’m kind of feeling a bit over QR codes as well because everywhere I go I need to now go in and find the QR code to be able to get. I know my loyalty discount at a certain store or whatever it might be. Yeah. How have you seen? That evolving a people’s attitudes.
Richard
Yeah, it’s a great question. So from from an apps perspective. And again, I think the pendulum has really swung back and forth on this one, but on the whole, you’re right, people don’t like what’s considered to be bloatware on their phone. They don’t like having multiple apps. And actually, you know with with the evolution of the Internet. We’ve now seen that that there is the capability just to have a website and actually to be able to manage everything through a site rather than through a native app on on a phone. And I think that makes a huge difference. I think you’re right around, you know, the proliferation of couponing or the proliferation of of vouchers. You and I were talking before, not one of my passions outside of outside of work is hiking and bushwalking. And actually, I’ve been looking at a lot of what’s happening with Black Friday. So we’ve obviously had one of our. Big E Commerce retail sales over the weekend, we’ve got Cyber Monday. Way and you know, I’m getting a proliferation of codes and emails as well. I think that, you know the the the business that cracks how to manage that will make an absolute fortune because you’re right there, there’s there’s too much that’s happening. What I am seeing come through though, are aggregators who pull together. Separate loyalty programmes or coupons and actually group them together into one single app. App that makes it easier for the consumer to to to really relate to multiple different platforms or businesses at the same time. So Stoke hard STOCARD is a great example of that where and I use that on a regular basis. They’re not just pulling in your your grocery offers via Woolworths or Coles, but they’re also looking at. And hiking businesses like Paddy Palin to try and pull them as well. And you get all of your coupon and your discounts via that feed that sits within the native app. So I think for me aggregation is is the way forward. I think that will make a massive difference to mobile commerce. And I think it will make a really big difference to that, that proliferation that you’re talking about that’s making it really hard to cut through and to get the consumer. You get people to actually go into your store and buy when there’s a sale.
Susan
Exactly. And I think one of the things I saw that COVID did was it forced a whole older generation to learn how to use a mobile with the shutdown of the 3G network within Australia and also the forcing of using QR codes to actually go into any store that that really. To push a generation who are making a big claim here, that probably majority didn’t bother with it. So I’m happy with just using their phone for everyday calls, not for anything else. Have now learned all about this new e-commerce. They could be part of. Have you seen many of many trends change with that change for that particular demographic?
Richard
Yeah, it’s another really great question. So my mother is, let’s say, about to hit another big birthday next year. Do I want to tell how old? My mother is. No, I’ll, I’ll. I’ll keep that. I’ll leave that to people’s imaginations. I’ll just say that I’m 50, so add on. My relative parents age to that and you’ll get the idea of how my mother is. I have seen in particular with her, and I, like, accept that she’s actually back in the UK. She’s not in Australia. I have seen quite an interesting. Change in terms of. Her behaviour, and not just as you point out the QR codes and some of the behaviours that we would have seen previously, I’ve actually seen a significant uptake in the number of people who purchased iPhones as a result of the the pandemic and actually needing a richer digital experience within those older cohorts. That’s that’s something. The anecdotally, I’ve come across a lot and I’ve read a little bit about within the Australian market as. Well, I also know that particularly, you know, there’s a lot of discussion at the moment about cost of living. There’s a lot of discussion around that bargaining and actually looking for opportunities. Some of the the marketplaces that previously hadn’t been considered by by older cohorts are now beginning to be considered. As an opportunity to purchase low cost goods. So if you look at catch of the day or eBay depending on the the item, we know that those older consumers are now they’re bargain hunting, they’re beginning to look around and see where those opportunities exist. You’ve also got, particularly in Australia, the growth of Amazon, which has made a significant difference as well. So I know if I, if I look at my in-laws over here, they are purchasing more on Amazon and they’re taking advantage of things like subscribe and save where they can actually set up a regular purchase for a discount. And also they don’t have to think about that. Purchase as well, because it arrives at their door on a regular basis, so those are probably some of the key changes that I I think I’m seeing with that that older cohort.
Susan
I think one of the ones that I’ve seen which actually goes perfectly into our next topic is my mother-in-law found. Facebook marketplace. The good and the bad that. Goes along with that. But how have you seen the power of the social commerce really kick in now? So all these social media platforms?
Richard
Yeah, it’s it’s a great question. So the Facebook marketplace thing is, is a really interesting one and you’re you’re absolutely right. I think that is that’s an area that has risen. You know that that C to C concept, consumer to consumer purchasing has definitely exploded during the pandemic. You know, people were buying, you know, gym equipment in bulk at the start of the pandemic and then flogging it as soon as they they were able to get out of lockdown. Yep. And and again, I I’ve, I’ve seen a little bit of that that grow as well. I think if we were to look more broadly and and, you know, look at what what’s happened outside of Australia as well. I think there’s some really interesting. James with social commerce and some of the platforms in other markets across the Asia Pacific region and. You know, just just to be clear, I think there are different forms of purchasing via social media. You do have social advertising, you have the ability to purchase product, one click purchase within social media and then there’s social commerce, which is really more end to end integration with a retailer with a partner. So you might be working with a Woolworths or Coles to drive purchasing off of their website, but it is done via that that social media platform, so it’s a slightly different experience it requires. Deep integration of your YOUR systems and your processes. You need to ensure that if you look at supply chain, in particular the integration between social platform and logistics for the retail platform will be very, very critical there and otherwise social commerce actually. Can’t operate unless it has that deep supply chain integration. We’re beginning to see, you know, retailers are beginning to drive some of this. The likes of Woolworths, the likes of Coles, they want to be able to to provide that that kind of opportunity for consumers to purchase their. I think if we look at some of the the platforms that are are really beginning to bubble up across the APAC. Obviously you know we talked a little bit about China before they lead the way in terms of social commerce. So, Taobao, WeChat, so the ability to purchase within a messaging platform has become really popular within China. And actually, you know, the Alibaba Group is a very good way of integrating an end to end seamless consumer journey and using the. Better to actually ensure that the consumer is managed at every single step of the journey and that their propensity to purchase is increased. They actually use data signals to identify high value consumers and then retarget them over time. So that sounds that sounds more complex than it actually is, and we’re doing that in a lot of instances. I think we chat in particular and. The alley group. Are past masters at at doing that? But then you know, you’ve also got Timor, you’ve got JD, you’ve got pin dot O in China as well pin dot O in particular are using discounts in and the discounts increase the more people join a group. So that group buying that group purchasing opportunity on that platform is one that I think from a social commerce perspective is really interesting.
Richard
And is really driving a change in behaviour that potentially you could begin to see opening up in in other markets like Australia further down the track, there’s some of the kind of key. Trains. If I look at other markets, shopping is a really popular platform in many of the Southeast Asia markets. We’re also seeing live streaming come through, in particular on shopping as well. As you know, some of the other Southeast Asia platforms. That’s driving a lot of social commerce. As a result of live streaming events that are pre scheduled that that the consumers are aware of and actually when they’re around a particular category, you can see a significant uplift. I did see one thing around live streaming in China that I thought was fascinating last week, which was an influencer. Who she basically had committed, I think it was 5 seconds for every product maximum and she did this. She did a live stream for about an hour and apparently the the sales that resulted from that were higher than any other live streaming event that had been activated within a A China platform.
Richard
And literally, when you watch the video, she’s picking up a product talking about it for a second and then moving on to the next. And so her throughput, the number of products that she actually highlighted was greater, significantly greater than any other live streaming influencer that had been on the platform today. So again, we’re, we’re we’re just beginning to see people play with the format play with some of the opportunities that are presented by social commerce. And certainly trends like live streaming will really play into. That space and. Will will really drive some of the performance that we’re seeing within that particular trend.
Susan
Yes. And I’ve seen some of this live streaming myself, probably more on the mediocre kind of side where it’s a bit more fun and quiche. I’m not sure if it was TikTok or Insta, potentially even Facebook. It was a while ago I saw this, but two instances I saw was one you could order whatever type of. What do you call them? Oysters, oysters and mussels that have actual pearls in them and live. They would crack them open so you could see what you got like, what colour? Was it? A blue one? Was it a pink one? Did you get double in there or nothing? And then people were ordering them then and there and then they’ll call out your name and go. I’m doing yours now. Robert, I’m not doing yours now, Samantha. So that that was how they did that live streaming another one I saw which looked absolutely crazy was. Look very Asian and it was a lady with. A giant scoop. And she was going into a big bowl and scooping out as much as she could in a certain time period to fill up this other little bucket of whatever these free little toys were, that these people were live buying as well. And people were watching it like hundreds. Thousands of people were watching these events. And I I just skimmed throughout my whole heart. I don’t know about that. I don’t need to buy that, but that’s pretty cool as well to see it.
Richard
Yeah, I I think really understanding what you know as with all good marketing, understanding what will resonate with your audience, what they’re going to be interested in in depending on their demographic. You know if that if that floats your boat, if you’re interested in in seeing oysters open then, then fantastic, then then you know, give it a try, I think just.
Susan
Probably a few injuries seen there. Too.
Richard
I’m think so. I think I think just to that point though, the you know really understanding your audience is is absolutely critical for for social commerce. One of the things. That we’ve seen on Dao Yin or TikTok in China in particular is the importance of of authenticity around brands. So we actually so that the the company that used to work for Haley on I’ve I’ve done some incredibly good work in this space working with their Sensodyne brand and actually beginning to look at how they can create content that is really. Almost gorilla very much kind of St level actually presenting use of the product and you know, even bringing in things like testimonials from users. To to actually advocate for the brand itself, rather than going out with a highly polished studio driven ad effectively that potentially would alienate people on on the platform. And again, you know if you think of a platform like TikTok, which is a little bit more, it’s certainly younger. It’s not one that I can claim to be honest, huge. No, but I know my kids are you. You need to be in the voice of the platform. You need to be considering how your brand shows up in that space and and you know, we’ve seen some really great examples of that. So authenticity again, I think is really key.
Susan
And one question I was gonna have to you on this whole social commerce using platforms to buy through instead of through the shop itself?
Richard
Yeah.
Susan
How does trust come into that? Because these markets you’ve spoken about in Asia have already got no, I suppose, almost to economies of scale like they’ve got WeChat and all the other ones you’ve just spoken about as well, that are very well known, they’re culturally known. The culture within other countries is using. Too, but how do you get that breakthrough to the cultural groups? Who, or even countries that haven’t used it? What are some tips and tricks that you have seen to help those brands be able to get through to that trust?
Richard
So I think you know, trust around brand. If you’re starting from from zero, it’s very, very difficult and it does take time to to build up that presence. I think you know again as with most brands, you’re looking for reach, you’re looking for advocacy through effectively likes and shares or similar. But the critical piece around product and purchases reviews. So actually driving reviews online is an important part of what we would consider to be the digital shelf and and actually, you know, going back to mobile commerce and and driving mobile commerce, having a really healthy digital shelf for your product where you have on the product purchase page page, the right primary image. The right description, the right everything in place that the consumer gets all the information that they need is is really critical. But as part of that. Having consumer reviews and driving those reviews is is really, really important. I often think it’s it’s quite interesting. One of the conversations I’ve had in FMCG is the concept of high versus low interest categories and whether or not reviews are relevant. I’m going to tell you now they are for everybody and for.
Richard
Every single brand. 110% and there are always people that are happy to talk about your brand if they have either a good experience or a bad experience. So get the product right, talk about it, get it on the platform and advocate for reviews, encourage reviews. If you’re not able. To incentivize reviews. So if you work in a highly regulated category, there are other ways to try and drive that aggregation. Reviews and working with your your platform is a really good way to start that process. Talking to them about how you can actually build up those reviews within the platform, the way that you do that. Changes depending on on which social commerce platform you’re working with or which process you’re working with, but I would absolutely advocate for reviews. Is a really important part of the puzzle.
Susan
And I think that’s a a fabulous tip tip to be able to share with everyone as well. And a lot of this comes back down to technology and how we can utilise it best. So I know one of your passions is understanding and bringing in AI and personalization together as a powerhouse. Australia is still learning to do this. Most people now know what a ChatGPT is, but what else is happening in this space that we should be made aware of and that other countries are doing that we’ll probably be seeing in the next? I don’t know, six hours, six weeks, six months.
Richard
Yeah, it’s a really interesting question. Again, I’m a a voracious podcast listener as well as contributor. So I was actually listening to 1:00 this morning that was talking about the advance of AI and in particular how the CEO of of ChatGPT, is really beginning to push the boundaries having left the. Business and rejoined it within the last week, but with I absolutely great way to get a pay rise, but they’re they’re really trying to push the way that they collaborate with other partners like Microsoft and and how they can begin to empower some of the services that are available through through other technology companies.
Susan
Good way to get a pay rise.
Richard
I think for me there there are a couple of key areas that we’re going to see some huge advancements in. Probably the 1st is the concept of personalised recommendations. Now personalization is a massive space within E commerce within digital commerce, not just, you know, in terms of the communication that we send out. Ah. And our ability to personalise how you receive it, some of the the preferences that that are denoted with any communication that you you receive but also. Like in terms of the recommendations that that an AI tool could be presenting to you from a product or a service perspective. So if I go back to, you know, wearing my previous hat of having worked in vitamins and minerals, the VMS category, we saw a lot of growth within that space where AI tools were beginning to take. Data from the consumer and actually then offer suggestions around the vitamins and minerals that they might like to take as a result. So you might be you might go onto a website and you might answer a series of questions via a survey that looks at things like your energy levels, your sleep, the amount of activity that. You do and then as a result of that, you might get a a bespoke VMS plan, a vitamin plan that that meets your requirements, and all of that is is AI powered. So that’s very, very simple. I think what we’re going to begin to see are some of these partnerships. And if you look at how potentially a VMS a vitamin company might. Partner with a a Garmin or a A Strava or any of those. Sporting data collectors, I think that you’ve got some really powerful opportunities to unlock real kind of well being opportunities for for business to try and really drive some some tangible results for for consumers who are looking to to improve their everyday health so. So I think that’s a really exciting space. I think there are some other user experience changes that we’re going to see more and more. I think people are very familiar with things like chat bots and virtual AI. Assistance. They’re only going to grow and get increasingly more sophisticated. I am quite a frustrated chat bot user. I tend to find that that I don’t get the answers that I’m looking for. I genuinely think that that will improve as the AI tools that sit behind and learn over the next couple of months. I think we’re also going to see things like visual search come through. So, you know, allowing users to upload images or use their devices camera to search for products. So we’re already beginning to see again some of that, but thinking about potentially how that might impact both online and offline, your your end to end user journey I think is really interesting. There’s a lot being done in predictive analytics already using AI, so how can we use the AI tools to get more from the data that’s available from each consumer interaction? Quite often talk about how consumers leave their digital fingerprints after every interaction with the brand, and I think that idea of. Really unpacking that connecting the dots between each interaction and getting more of a a progressive view of a consumer. So understanding more and more and more about an individual over time, I think is is really interesting and I know that companies like. Nestle are looking into that concept of progressive profiling. Overtime is is a really important part of their strategy and then you know you’ve you’ve got some of the areas that potentially people would immediately think of things like fraud detection and security. So you know we already we already get asked are we a robot half the time that we’re trying to. Sign in? Yeah, there’s an AI tool that tends to sit behind that, and then, you know, dynamic pricing is another piece that potentially people are aware of. Consumers are aware of. The the the price behind the product will change depending on availability depending on demand and we look at platforms like Amazon. Potentially you’re already using that or even airline companies and we’ll we’ll use dynamic pricing really, really quite so efficiently and then probably the last two things I’ve mentioned, augmented reality, we’ve kind of touched on the use of camera. And then I think that supply chain optimization piece that I mentioned before in terms of social commerce, we’re going to see, hey, I get more and more involved. Involved in really helping us track a product from order through to delivery and potentially beyond, potentially being able to help build that relationship between the brand and the consumer over time. So I think there are some really interesting areas, but you’re absolutely right. AI for me is. A really hot button. And I’m really excited to see where where it goes. I’m not a doomsayer. I’m very much I’m on board. I’m on board.
Susan
I think for me, one of the companies that really needs to get behind this and do it faster than what they have been because I’m very disappointed in them, is Woolworths. So Woolworths ex is this whole giant organisation within Woolworths that is part of the engine of let’s make everything better for the consumer. We’re doing CX, but we’re going to do it digitally, LED and they’re plugged into everything. Anything you can imagine to make everything beautiful. But I’ll give you an example here. I’ll give you 2. 1. My cat passed away earlier this year.
Richard
I’m sorry to hear that.
Susan
Quite a few quite a few months ago. Thank you. He’s he. He was. He had to, unfortunately. But Little Carter, he had to pass away. And I’m still receiving recommendations from them for. Cat food.
I haven’t had a cat for six months. I don’t have another cat. I am not planning to get another cat. Another one that really frustrates me and this whole progressive profiling is, yeah, I’m a mother with twins. And when you think baby formula for those that don’t know baby formula comes in different stages depending on their age group for their first year or two of life. So you go from stage 1234, then you. Hopefully offered or you might be on a different type of formula altogether. Very predictive, very much if if you can work out when the first purchase is roughly made, you could go OK that lasts for usually four months and then you could put an algorithm behind the scenes. My kids are 2 1/2 at this moment. This time I’m still getting formula recommendations for stage 1.
Susan
That that’s why is that even in my recommendation bucket at all. It it shouldn’t be, and that’s where I think some companies really let you down as well. And that experience from a customer point of view of why are you recommending me things that I 100% do not need?
Richard
I think that’s a really interesting point. So and I I agree with you, I think progressive profiling is is probably the key to answering that. And you know, really just beginning to understand more and more about the consumer. I think one of the things that I get quite passionate about, people are often quite negative with digital advertising. And for me, provided advertising is relevant and that’s the critical word. I have absolutely no problem. And and if there’s if there’s a a way for me to make advertising more relevant over time by sharing specific behaviours or information or data than that, I’m happy to do.
Susan
Definitely relevant.
Richard
We’re obviously, you know, everybody is very, very conscious of the data that they share and we need to make sure that data breaches are actively, you know, managed by the companies and the platforms that, that, that we operate with or that we share data with at the same time driving towards that, that, that, that level of relevance I think is is a really beneficial. Is for both business brand and consumer as as well. I think you know, to your point, I I’m always fascinated. So we have a number of listening devices around the house. I’m sitting next to a Google nest here. There’s an Alexa in every room. You.
Susan
Yeah. Yes.
Richard
Know there’s a phone here.
Susan
Your.
Richard
And you know, I’m always quite blown away when, you know, we we’re off on holiday at the end of the year and I’ll see an ad for. A place that I’ve looked at. On YouTube, but I’ve looked at it on on the laptop up here. I I always think that that data connection is is really in. Interesting and and I think you know again there is a role. You’re right. There is a role for artificial intelligence to really help connect some of those dots and ensure that you know potentially we are getting increasingly more personalised advertising over time. I’m very sorry to hear about your cat. I lost the dog at the start of the year so. It’s it’s a tough time to go through tough, very tough time to go through, but but pet companies, if you’re listening, please pick this up because it’s not a nice experience.
Susan
No, not not to be continually recommended. No, no.
Richard
No, fair enough.
Susan
And I I. I truly I I 100% agree with you. It’s all about that relevance in place, right time making. Creepy factor aside, consumers expect their data to be used for personalization these days. They expect that if I give you this survey, this questionnaire, this data on myself, you in return. So I know you’re gonna use my data for stuff in return. I expect something. So to have relevant. Products recommended or relevant reviews to read and see how to or even recipes wherever it might be. There is that relationship where it’s supposed to be reciprocal. And a lot of businesses are still failing with that and that I agree with you, that’s where the AI can come in and be part of that story to make it more personalised at the. Same time as relevant.
Richard
Love it completely on board.
Susan
So sustainability and green practise.
Susan
It’s it’s definitely topical. Everyone is talking about carbon. No plastic bags anymore. What can we do to help the environment? What have you seen in trends when it comes from all of like the Asia Pacific region that we should be looking at as part of our practises?
Richard
Yeah, it’s it’s a really important piece I think for for ecommerce. So first of all, I I will say that I think it’s fair FMCG companies are really struggling with this across the Asia Pacific region and. Mainly because quite often some of the the E commerce packaging initiatives that come out are very costly to try and and and set up and manage. And you know one of the big challenges that e-commerce has is the concept of how much value it creates for the broader business so. If you look at, you know ecommerce is only 3% to 5% of your your business in, in some categories, if it’s only three to 5%, then actually making those changes around packaging can be quite cost prohibitive. Unless you look at the longer term benefit and you build in some of the the brand benefit at the same time. To to the consumer. What we’re seeing and some of the the platforms that are helping to try and get over that are platforms like Amazon who are actively trying to drive shipping own container or sioc SIOC and then also FFP or frustration free packaging has two initiatives that they think will create a great consumer experience. That’s now that’s that’s everywhere that Amazon is. So if I look at the Asia Pacific region, Amazon’s Big in Japan, it’s big in India, it’s big in Singapore and obviously, we’ve got Amazon here in Australia as well. So there are some really great markets that are already looking at doing some of this sioc and FP opportunity as well. I think the other piece is really trying to some of the companies that are really doing this like again like Nestle are beginning to look at how they can operate closer with their supply chain in order to shift the way that that E commerce operates. So having an individual who’s responsible for E commerce. Within the supply chain team is a really good starting point and actually beginning to say, OK, well, what are we doing around green packaging? How do we ensure that everything that we’ve got is eco friendly, how do we ensure that it’s recycled? How do we ensure that it’s biodegradable? How do we reduce the environmental impact of packaging? At all. How do we reduce the packaging waste so I know that I’ve had both ends of the spectrum in terms of experience when I’ve received E commerce products, so I’ve I’ve had on the one hand, it’s been a shipping own container product where I’ve opened it up. There’s minimal packaging and I’ve got the product. On the other hand, I’ve had the experience where I’ve had a massive cardboard box arrive. It’s filled with paper and on the inside the product is only, you know. Yeah, big, but it’s in a box that this that’s. This. Big so having somebody within the supply chain organisation who’s responsible for looking at that and you know again green packaging, reducing packaging waste is is really important. The next thing that I’m seeing businesses do really well is begin to look at carbon offsetting as an option to really try and drive some of that change in behaviour that happens within within organisations. So looking at how you can offset your carbon emissions from shipping by investing in projects that reduce or capture the equivalent amount. He’s a really great way of of building a programme and again, Amazon is a great example of an organisation that’s trying to drive that they’ve actually had green certification in other markets like the US for some time now. I know that in the next couple of months they’ll be looking to bring that green certification into Australia as well. I believe in the next six months. And and, you know, cut that carbon offsetting piece I think will be part of that, that programme as well. So any organisation that takes a step forward and that looks at their carbon footprint and how they might offset. And there are organisations that that are out there that can help you actively work out your carbon footprint that that that’s a really again. Very important part of it. We’ve talked about supply chain. I think you know again working with suppliers, manufacturers, platforms actually building that end to end journey for for the product I think is really important and looking at it through an eco lens. And you know, ultimately looking at the product life cycle and the considerations around that are really important. So for me there are a couple of really simple pieces that that we could be doing immediately that I’ve seen good business. Do I know that again, former company Hayon have started looking at this as well. Things like energy efficient operations, how do you optimise your energy use in warehouses, within offices, within data centres, using energy efficient lighting, heating, cooling systems? All of those things do play into the the digital commerce space and again, this is kind of the interesting. I go back to what I mentioned at the start.
Susan
All right.
Richard
Digital commerce really is more than just the digital component. It is more broad than that. It actually looks at all different parts of the organisation and you know, if you’re talking about the lighting that’s used in the warehouse, you can get further away from digital. If you tried really. So I think there’s there’s, there’s some really interesting pieces there. I think, you know, being able to encourage consumers to only opt into your brand. Or to opt into your brand because it is seen as an eco brand, I. Think is really. Important as well, so the way that you advertise via digital commerce is important. Having that certification from a platform like Amazon will really help with that process. Building waste reduction programmes as well, again to kind of mirror. What you’re doing within the supply chain team and actively, you know, implementing those those programmes and talking to the consumer about what you’re doing to make a difference I think is important. So that element of transparency and communication to the consumer is is really important. And then you know from a digital perspective and this is probably the last thing I’d say looking at the digital solutions that you could be putting in place, not just via digital commerce, but also thinking about the relationships that you’ve got with retailers like Woolworths and Coles and in the past, I’ve I’ve really, I’ve tried to build that into things like joint business. Planning process is JBP’s where you do have an opportunity to say OK, how can we work with you to to create digital receipts to create digital invoice. Is to reduce the amount of paper that’s used within our organisation from a B2B perspective as well as the B2C perspective to really try and build a a more ecological or ecocentric supply chain process or product life cycle within the E commerce realm. So I think lots and lots of ways that we can do that. To to try and shift the dial.
Susan
I think there’s definitely a whole pile of opportunity. Is that even smaller businesses can look into just as simply as how do you use your energy? Could just be one that they could just tackle straight away and go. You know what? I can turn off the PowerPoint, even something so simple like that can make a difference.
Richard
100% agree. I wish my kids would do the same thing at home.
Susan
Now I’m going to go to your final favourite topic of them all. We’ve left it till last because I know you really want to talk, particularly about Indonesia and the Philippines, but emerging markets and the focus that we should be getting. What should we be looking at and what do you think should be where we’re going to go with what you’ve seen come out of those markets at present?
Richard
Yeah, great question. So and this is my favourite topic. So I I think it’s one of the things I’ve really enjoyed being in an Asia Pacific role for the last couple of years is actually looking at different markets in their stage of maturity. So yes, you’ve got markets like China which are significantly further ahead than the rest of the APAC region. And actually, the reason that they’re so far ahead is because. I think that that they’ve unpacked data, they’ve unpacked user experience, and actually they’ve used their data to empower and optimise the user experience over time going right the way back to what we talked about at the start by building those optimization queues. And that’s now what we’re beginning to see come through. In in some of the other markets, I think obviously what we’ve seen over the last couple of years, particularly with the pandemic is that. That digital maturity curve, every market has accelerated really hard as a result of the pandemic. And we actually had this huge shift to online. We had some markets that were growing at 2 and 300%. And Indonesia, you’re absolutely right. In the Philippines where we’re right up there as markets that grew outside. With that, we also saw Vietnam grow significantly. Thailand, we’re seeing a lot of change as well. And then you do you, you’ve got markets that that did grow but are beginning to slow back down again, markets like Taiwan where they are a very big ecommerce player. But at the same time they they don’t have the same level of opportunity. That you’d see in a market like Indonesia or or the Philippines? I think one of the critical things that we talked about this before that these markets are getting really down pat, what they’re really working on hard is that digital shelf presence and what they’re looking at is is 3 concepts and we, we we talked a lot about this when I worked with Haley on his findability conversion and performance. Being able to look. That how do I ensure that my product is findable? So looking at things like search, how do I build in organic search? How do I have the white paid strategy and then once you’ve got the consumer on the page on the platform and the key platforms that I mentioned before in Southeast Asia are the likes of Shoppy and Masada? And then how, when the consumer arrives, how do we get them to convert? What is the offer that we’re providing to the consumer? And then after that, how do we ensure that we’re building that performance over time and that really plays into the review space, that advocacy space that that we talked about previously as well? That FCP, I think, is what’s driving along with that user experience piece is what’s driving the growth within those markets and what’s happened actually is that consumers have gone online, they’re able to find the product better than they could before they’re able to see where the offers and the discounts are. And then what’s happening is that brands are actively following up to try and build that advocacy overtime and that behaviour sticks. So what we see in digital commerce is people will move online, they’ll purchase the product and if they have a great experience, they’ll stay with it. They won’t move to the back to the offline channel. Having said that, a market like Australia, we’ve actually seen consumers go back into the stores and that’s been an active drive that’s that’s been happening by our our grocery companies over here, yeah, where they they want to see consumers in the store browsing for products and actually potentially picking up more than they would have done in the online. Baskets. So Indonesia and the Philippines in particular I think are are really interesting markets. Because they’ve gone through that accelerated change over the last couple of years as a result of the pandemic and now having focused on the FCPB and having built up that optimization queue, I think we’re just going to see them continue to. Grow more and more. And more you’ve got underpinning that as well. Two critical pieces, one is. The growth of mobile, which we still know is growing significantly within the Southeast Asia. Region and then on top of that, you’ve got the logistics and the supply chain piece now for if you think of Indonesia in particular, you’ve got a large number of islands that that make up that regional area. So the logistics piece is very difficult getting the product to the consumer when they’ve ordered what we’re going to see over the next couple of years. Is that the logistics piece will get easier as those platforms grow as their shoppers and the Lazarus grow and they actually begin to to get a foothold. With their logistics framework, their network by the partnering or by building and actually being able to get the the the product to the consumer faster and faster and faster. So I don’t expect to see that changing anytime soon. If you were to take some of those key things and try and apply them to Australia, I think you know some of the messages that we’ve talked about. All the way through today are really critical. You have to get your digit. Your shelf health up to scratch if you aren’t looking at how your product appears, primary image secondary image, your description, your product titles. If you aren’t looking at how consumers search for your product. As a result, if you aren’t looking at the offers that that you’re presenting to the consumer when they get onto the page. And then building that relationship subsequently via things like reviews, you’re going to lose the consumer within within the journey. So I think those are really critical having the right supply chain, having the white people in the supply chain team as well who can begin to look at things like. Environmental opportunities and who can begin to build your your product and your presence on platform is is absolutely critical and then you know being being able to ensure that you follow up as well and you build that advocacy with the consumer over time through things like ratings and reviews. We’ll we’ll really give you that end to end piece and those. Those are the key areas that we’re seeing in those emerging markets and they’re probably the key areas that. I think we. Can pull through to Australia and the Australian market for any any business that’s looking to grow now.
Susan
And exactly they transferable, aren’t they? There’s some things that are just almost hygiene that they could start bringing in to be able to reap those benefits.
Richard
Yeah. 100% yeah, I agree completely, yeah.
Susan
I have loved our conversation today, but I always end with one final question. What brand, if any, in the world best represents you and why?
Richard
It’s a great question. I love answering this question, so I’m going to pick a brand that people may not have heard of, but I’ll explain why I why I pick it. So it isn’t a big brand like a Nic or or a Sony. It’s actually a brand called all trails. I think I mentioned to you before that I’m an avid bushwalker and high caps. I love getting out into the Australian.
Richard
Bush and forest bathing, I believe we call. Getting a little bit of nature rewilding, it’s a. Very important part.
Susan
You might be able to trademark that phrase.
Richard
Of who I am. I I don’t think I can. I think it’s already. I think it’s taken, but it’s yeah, so it’s it’s something I’m very passionate about. All trails is actually San Francisco based digital company. They have tracked every trail in Australia and actually they’ve created a social network that allows hikers to go in. Find the trails that are near them. Pick trails based on difficulty grading on the length of the trail. You can go in. You can share your feedback on the trail. You can actually track your progress around the trail and. Kind of. You’re you’re able to see your progress over time, which for somebody that’s competitive like me, I actually really enjoy it. And then you can also take photos of the trails and upload them. They’re they’re a really progressive digital experience provider. And and I really love them from that from that perspective, but also because they just have a love of the great. Outdoors that I personally share as well, so they’re not an Australian business. They are a small business, but the way that they present their user experience and I think really seems to me and there’s certainly a brand that I really enjoy. Music.
Susan
It it sounds like it’s a perfect fit for you. Bit of digital, a bit of nature, all combined together, mixing with great photos and enjoying yourself. I think that’s that’s a really good one.
Richard
100%. 100%.
Susan
Thank you. I I would just love to do a sum up because we’ve learned so much today from you. So the the biggest call out for me is it’s all digital commerce where you’ve got transformation, marketing, e-commerce all coming together. It’s not just one or the other. You need to think of it as a present with all these fantastic gifts inside that all work together. Yeah. Mobile commerce, you need to do some experimentation. There’s a lot of people out there. Just do a set and forget. But optimization is key to be able to iterate like some of the Asia Pacific markets have been doing. Ensure that you look at how social commerce trends could help you, but make sure to be authentic and be true to your brand. If you do go down this path, but there may be some opportunities there that we’re seeing in emerging markets for purchase trends, so definitely something to look at, particularly if you’re more culturally sensitive in depending what country you’re from. But no matter what, reviews are critical. If you’re not ending your journey through a purchase with asking for a review, whether you give them something for it or not. You’re not going to get much out there when it comes to social, so you need to ensure that you’ve got that come coming back with some feedback to you coming back with how they love it or may not like it. It’s. Also gold for. You. So I’m sure you’re continuing that conversation out there in a positive way. Artificial intelligence has so much to offer for us if we start looking at how we can collaborate with it and our partners, we may be able to create some fantastic solutions for doing some personalization for recommendations through the progressive profile. And there’s so many good things here and then adding the layer of also sustainability and green practises. You can then also look at how can you improve what you’re delivering, whether it is within the business itself or how it’s going out to the actual consumers. By looking at your energy efficiency certification, also waste reduction. But again, joining up with a partner can help you, so definitely look at if there’s any digital solutions where you can work together to make a benefit for both of you and also that customer. And emerging markets itself, there is so much out there, but it all comes down to data and user experience. Make sure that you’re pairing both together and continue optimising and testing, and that’s how some of these markets have become ahead. They’ve already spent that time and invested in it, and it’s worked. They’re reaping the benefits, so it’s time for other companies to start doing that as well. And last but not least. Look to see if you can put someone in the supply chain that actually has a focus on digital e-commerce. It will help it have more of an integrated feel within the business so that you’ll gain a better result overall. How’d I go, Richard?
Richard
That was absolutely brilliant. I couldn’t have done it better myself. Thank you. Yeah, that was perfect.
Susan
Thank you again so much for your time, Richard, any final thought you want to leave off?
Richard
Not from my side. Just thank you so much for for having me today. The only thing I would I would do a slight small self promo which is just I I have set up my own business digital moose which is a consultancy that looks at digital marketing, digital transformation and digital commerce and please anybody that’s interested if you’d like to look. No more. Please look me up on LinkedIn.
Susan
Fantastic. Thank you again, Richard. And that was digital moose. I’ll make sure to have it in the notes from this podcast. Thank you again for everyone else, make sure to follow More to marketing for some more fantastic podcast with excellent guests. More to marketing.