Susan
More to marketing. Welcome to modern marketing. The podcaster explores marketing, product and everything in between. I’m your host, Susan, and today we’re talking about how to approach digital transformation and product culture. With over 30 years experience in the Internet and IT market. I’m so pleased to introduce Joca today. He is an expert in this. He has a huge passion for technologists and technology, and he loves to bridge the gap between the IT and the business. But in all various different areas to improve the business. He has a passion to share his knowledge and insights by helping businesses really thrive to be the best that they can be and get their real potential. But. Why am I still talking? Let’s talk to Joca. Welcome and tell us. More about you.
Joca
Ohh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation and for having me. And so a little bit about me. I’m I’m a I’m a computer engineer. I graduated in computer engineering school here in Brazil called ETA. It’s known as the Brazilian MIT. Whatever it is anyway, and from the the College I created my own startup, an Internet service provider in Brazil back in the 1992. So it was the first Internet service provided in Brazil. I sold the company to an American company, had the opportunity to to work with them and to. Nationally and then I joined the friend from from the. Village, who had the hosting provider, one of the biggest hosting providers in Brazil, called local web. I stayed there for 11 years, heading the product development and product management there and diversifying the product portfolio from there. I moved to a company called Contact Zoo, which is ERP for small businesses. Similar to 0, which I believe is a company from Australia or New Zealand. Yeah. Yeah and.
Susan
Yep, definitely heard of them.
Joca
And and from there I moved to a company called Gpas. Chipas is a very interesting company because they offer a corporate benefit for companies to offer to their employees. Access to a network of teams and studios is a Brazilian company, but already presence in Europe and the US and Latin America. And. And there I started to see that technology is not the centre. Of the world. Because the company, even though it’s a tech company, the product was not a tech product. It’s a product that is a corporate benefit and the technology, the digital product was only. Potential licencing the the the results of the product. And and then I started to realise that there is more in the world than technology and then a company called Lopez, which is the biggest real estate company here in Brazil, was facing huge competition from startups startups and they decided to do a digital transformation. They raise some money through a follow on offer in the stock market and they raised 30 million U.S. dollars and decided to do a digital transformation and they invited me to lead this digital transformation. And I decided to accept this invitation looking into my career, saying yes, this is something that I I need to experience in my career. So I jumped to this opportunity and and stayed there for two years, learned a lot. It’s it’s really, really, really difficult. But I learned a lot in this in this position. And from there since 22, I started to do consulting, coaching and workshops training and that’s where I am.
Susan
Amazing. Fantastic. Sounds like you’ve had a lot of opportunities to be in the leading front for almost all things IT and customer facing business facing within Brazil and Latin America and a bit beyond as well, which is absolutely fantastic, which probably led you part to one of your decisions that you made to share your knowledge. Which is your book? You. You’ve you’ve actually got this beautiful book out there called digital transformation and product culture.
Joca
That’s right.
Susan
Tell us a bit about how that started to evolve and when it started to tick in your mind that you need to share this new understanding you had of the digital.
Joca
World. Yeah, yeah, actually, I I probably didn’t mention this to you, but this is. My 4th book. Redbook. OK. The first one on the product discovery called Startup Guide, the second one called Product management on the function of product managers. The third one is leading product managers or leading product.
Yep.
Joca
Development released in 2020 and this is my 4th book, so I I really like to to to write about this. I like to share. I’ve been giving training here in Brazil for a long time now and it has two objectives. The first one is to share. Knowledge to share learnings to so we can grow as a community and the second one is. A little bit selfish, I know, but when we have to prepare to present something, especially in writing, you need to be careful on organising your ideas. So this helps me organise my ideas and understand the concepts that I’m learning so it helps me to. To to present my ideas. So that’s that’s why I I really like writing.
Susan
I wouldn’t call that selfish. That’s making sure you’re articulating yourself in the right way to be able to repeat. What? You’re what you’re learning and be able to reuse it in the future and I think it’s admirable. One of the things I love is talking to people who have written books or who have a passion to write books because they really want to share. And it’s not selfishness at all. It’s actually caring about others to be able to learn from potentially your mistakes. And then be on a better path to have better success by reading the books.
Joca
Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And and I’ve been receiving so, so, so many positive feedback on on the book. So it’s good that it’s helping me organising the idea and at the same time, it’s helping people to to understand more about building products and. Learning from my mistakes also, so it’s it’s really good, really really happy with it.
Susan
So what do you think? Is one of the the biggest learnings that you got out of writing the book that you shared with everyone in it?
Joca
What I’ve been talking a lot lately is the importance for people to. Understand that the product that we build, the software that we build, it’s just a means to an end, even though we talk a lot about product management, product marketing, product development, we don’t wake up to build product. We wake up to achieve results to achieve objectives and. The product that we build is a meaning for us to do that and this is very important. This change the perspective. And I’ve been sharing some very interesting stories around this one very interesting story I’d like to share about this. It’s when I joined this lobbyist, this real estate company, they had, they were building a. Real estate agent. Yeah. And they were mentioning it as the MVP, a minimal viable product. I asked them, but for how long are you building this? And they said to me, we are building this for seven months, said seven months this way too much for an MVP and they said.
Joca
The discovery for other five. Month so one year total to build this envy and said listen we we cannot call it an MVP but tell me more why why are we building this right and they said listen this is one on one sales so whenever we have a lead a person interested in a property. If we make this lead get to the agent as fast as possible and the agent replies to this lead as fast as possible, it increases the chances to to evolve to close the deal or to evolve to the next place. So we decided to build.
Joca
Mobile app with with push notification. OK it’s it’s it’s a possible solution but OK. But then during the discovery, we figure out that the the real estate agent she cheques the name of the person into our database to see. If the person is there, if it’s not, she registered the person there and so this new scope entered the scope of the product, so the scope. Growth and yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then another thing is that the, the, the agent, what they do is they search for properties similar to that one that came with the lead just send like 3-4 properties because that increased the.
Susan
Yep, scope creep love it.
Joca
Chances of the the lead, the person the prospect interested in the property. Scheduling of visits to visit at least one of the properties. So the search for the properties also entered as another feature in the in this scope. So it grew it grows grows.
Joca
See how we ended up with that.
Susan
That that’s not MVP. Yep.
Joca
Exactly. So what I mentioned to them is listen an MVP is let’s keep with the app with push notification, leave all the rest. She already does that somehow. So leave it to. To them to do it the way she already does it. OK. Ohh. That’s right. That makes sense. And I said Sam and you know what? We could even not build the app. We could send a notification through SMS, then everybody. Ohh yeah, you were right. And then I asked the engineers and said I mentioned. But is it possible? Can can we do it? And they said yes we can. And they went there and they they they did it.
Susan
Eyes opening. Yep.
Joca
And they did it in 10 days, 10. Things and instead.
Susan
Compared to 12 months that you’ve been, they’ve been working on already.
Joca
In 10 days, all the agents were receiving the notification, so this is what I’ve been telling a lot about. What what matters is the result you need to deliver results fast. That’s what we are here for. And the product that we build is a means to that.
Susan
No, I think that’s that’s a fantastic story about how some people can. When you don’t have a project manager or equivalent steering it the right way. People with power can put authority into it and say no, no, no, it must have these other two things or you cannot go live. They don’t strip it back to go. OK, let’s get out as fast as possible. And then work on what we need after. We’ve seen behaviour.
Joca
Yeah, yeah, totally agree, totally.
Susan
Hmm. So with the digital transformation and product culture, how have you seen that change once your eyes opened to that the product is just a means, what have you ever actually done to to change the ways people think?
Agree.
Joca
Yeah, that’s that’s a very good question because when we talk about digital transformation, the digital part is is somewhat easy because it’s about technology. It’s about the things that we can find articles and read about and it’s easy. The transformation part is very difficult because we need to change how people behave. And this is this is a lot about culture, about changing behaviours. That’s why I talk about product culture in the in the, in the book and changing culture is not about saying you need to do this this way. You need to do that this other way. It’s not about that. It’s much more about examples. We need to find example. And of of of Good behaviours and bad behaviours and call out these examples wherever possible. So this example that I just gave the SMS and the push notification app this is I was very very lucky when I. Mr Lopez and I, I was faced with this situation of the real estate. Agent app because I started to use this example, whenever the business people came, we need to build a new app for this or for that we need to build a new website for this for that and I said OK, but what is the problem that we are trying to solve? Because maybe the faster way to get the?
Joca
Do you remember the the app the the the Push Notification app? So having examples is a better way for us to implement. Culture implement the principles, the behaviours that we need to change, and then using those examples after some time the the sales people, the business people started to came to the digital team with still with solutions, with requests. But already bringing the problem behind the request. So Ohh, we think we need to build this because.
Joca
We need. To solve this, but maybe we can figure out another solution. We understand that. So it’s. Then we see the the, the the behaviour changing.
Susan
I love that is is training the others to stop thinking that this is the solution, but we have a problem. What is the best solution? Give us a handful for us to consider.
Joca
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And and and. And the solution it’s it’s, it’s. This is, this is probably the topic the topic that I will be talking now a lot in 2024. The the The the magic of product innovation is not either in the problem discover, nor either in the delivery is in this middle part that I call the solution discovery. The solution discovery exactly what you mentioned, Susan is. The. Creating solution, hypothesis and testing those solutions hypothesis to see which one is the best, the most efficient, the most, the cheapest, the fastest to implement. That’s where the magic of innovation happens.
Susan
And I find myself that a lot of businesses still think the answer to getting in the hands of their potential customers is. But I find that when you actually talking to people, the actual end users or potential end users. They’re over apps. They’re sick of having all these apps to download or QR codes to download. They understand that it’s easy, but they’ve now got 100 apps or 200 apps, and they only use it once or twice a year. If that, it’s a lot of them, and they’re taking up memory in my phone, and then they’ve got all these other concerns. That come out about. Particularly old generations, so I have enough memory for my pictures and things. Like that. So for me myself, I’ve been watching this and. As long as what you’re creating is mobile first in technology, that should cover most situations. Developing iframes and websites that use the mobile 1st and people don’t have to download the app, they can just save favourite links, etcetera. And do that on either their phone or their desktop. What are your views when it comes to? To that example.
Joca
I I totally agree with you and I again, I have a very interesting example from from Lopez that maybe makes sense to to to share. Lopez is is real estate is B2C, it’s some sort of. Commerce, but it’s not really commerce because people don’t buy, don’t don’t acquire the house. Through the website, but anyway, and and we learned from other people we had a we made a benchmark with e-commerce sites and they mentioned to us that the best conversion rate in terms of CRM in terms of relationship with customers is push notification. That’s why. All the commerces they have an app because they want us to download the app and then they keep sending us push notification because it has a huge conversion. Rate more than SMS, more than email marketing, and then we kept thinking, hey, maybe that makes sense to us as well because we are B2C even though we are not in E commerce. So how can we test that? Should we build our own app because we didn’t have? End user app where we were building an agent app but we didn’t have a end user app or to search for properties. We had a very beautiful portal but we didn’t have a. An end user app and then we said should we build this this app, this native app, but it will take, I don’t know month it will take a long time and we.
Susan
Yeah, they take time to do.
Joca
We don’t know. So what can we do? So what we decided to do is our website was adaptive to mobile. So what we decided to do is to put it inside the web view.
Joca
And uploaded it to the to the to the store, so to iPhone and and Google store and the end started to send push notifications and it really showed a fantastic conversion rate but. Yeah, people don’t download. People are resistant to, though exactly what you mentioned. It’s it doesn’t. It’s not sure it makes sense to search for properties in a mobile phone. So OK, it makes sense. It has a good conversion rate, but it has another obstacle to overcome, which is making people download the app. Imagine if we had invested in building the whole native app. So this is the minimum minimum mindset that we have. To have to, to, to, to build the minimum thing, to test our our hypothesis, what is the cheapest way that we have to test our hypothesis?
Susan
Exactly. And again going back and. Finding the actual results. Yes, we’ve seen some fantastic things. Yes. Other types of markets, but what will happen in ours? What will the behaviour be? So yes, you had great interaction. For the few. Who downloaded it? And that was the problem. It was the few you didn’t have scale.
Joca
Exactly. Exactly.
Susan
And that’s where I think a lot of businesses manipulate numbers a little bit internally for their favour.
Joca
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I believe so.
Susan
So what critical factors do you think help drive a company to undergo a digital transformation? What are? What are some of those key areas and key factors that should be considered when going down this path?
Joca
Normally what drives is some sort of threat when they see. And companies going into that direction, especially if they are tech companies or startups well funded, that’s what happened in our case in Lopez, this real estate company, because they were the biggest company here in Brazil. With the real estate company. But there are there were other. Two real estate companies here startups, one called LOFT and the other one called Kington Bar, which translates to 5th 4. I don’t know why they call it 3rd way, but anyway, those two companies, those big startups and Lopez, was very, very concerned. So that’s why they decided to go into this. Digital transformation route and normally is is something like this. They see they either see a threat, someone entering their space and moving fast and gaining attention and gaining customers and. Gaining funding or they see a potential in some technology and and invest and one common mistake that they normally make is hiring some. Some big consultancy company.
Susan
Spending a fortune.
Joca
Come and make a big yeah. Make a big, big, big project. Because those companies, they they are not use it to start small because one thing that is very important in the digital transformation, you cannot start big huge. You need to start small and have small wins that prove themselves because you need to gain this culture. You, you, you, you cannot implement this culture all at all. You need to to to have small wins and and and experiment and and see how this fit.
Susan
The traction going.
Joca
Exactly, and see how this fits into the existing company culture and start to make changes and adaptations. So yeah.
Susan
I’ve seen quite a a lot of big agencies go into some big companies here in Australia and.
give
Very great, beautiful presentations giant, big long documentations that took six months and so many people’s time because they kept doing all the interviews. But then you they walk away. They don’t actually help you do the process. They give it to you and go ohh. It will be another huge X amount of money. If you want to actually hold hand hold you. And it’s like you said, it’s not small pieces. Generally they’re trying to do a giant transformation like, hey, let’s just wipe out all middle management. That will solve part of the culture that will help us get a faster digital transformation. It’s like, ah, that doesn’t quite work.
Joca
Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah. What what I’ve been seeing that makes sense is. Training helps and hiring people that already have gone through digital transformation, or even that that that has already lived in a tech company that already have other culture that, that, that is the best way forward. That’s actually what I recommend.
Joca
In the in the in the book to have outside people from outside helping on training on on, on bringing skills to the existing people in the company. But it’s needed. I I even tried to to do that without having someone.
Joca
Being the person in the company responsible for that and it doesn’t work, you need to have someone in the company responsible for the digital transformation and it needs to be someone that has experienced past experience in a tech company or in a company that went through a successful transformation. That’s that’s. Sorry for.
Susan
I I assume then a lot of that’s got to do with that trust factor of when it gets announced, other team members and teams will be like, well, this person’s been through it before. They’re knowledgeable, we’re safe.
Joca
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. We can trust him. He he at least he already went through this. He knows at least part of the path that we need to go through, you know? Yeah, he knows a little bit of the the obstacles that we’re gonna face. The shortcuts that we may take, so that’s that’s, that’s the the idea to have this person on board. And this person should live in the company. He needs to be a employee. Yeah.
Susan
Deposit. Yep. One of the. Things I noticed when reading some of your pieces that you’ve done is. C-Suite so C level, I don’t. I don’t want to ruin it by saying the answer, but could you elaborate more? What I mean about C-Suite when it comes to digital transformation?
Joca
Yeah, yeah, this is. This is very important. This is the the same that I was talking earlier the, the, the it’s experience, the C-Suite doesn’t have experience, it’s it’s a, it’s a survey that I’ve shared with you that about the suite, the majority of the C-Suite doesn’t have. Experience even. CIOs, they don’t have experience with digital products and and digital transformation. They have experience in manage SAP or ERP’s and internal systems. But all our digital transformation with digital products, customer facing digital products and things like that. So. That’s that’s that’s very concerning and we need to increase this, this experience, it’s.
Joca
It’s it’s a very important point, yeah.
Susan
And particularly if they’re going to go through digital transformation and C-Suite has no experience there, how can they lead? How can they even know they’re going? Down the right path.
Joca
Exactly. They need to bring as as I mentioned, they need to bring at least one suite that has this experience. That’s that’s the the the path forward they need to bring at least one person that helps spread the the word so to speak.
Susan
Exactly. And that’s what the research he shared with me showed that there was a huge proportion more success. If you had someone in C sit with those skills because they could help the ship go in the right direction compared to those without, they almost crash and burn a lot of the time because of the mistakes made.
Joca
Exactly, exactly, exactly. And one of the biggest mistakes that they make is that they they believe they know what they they need.
Joca
Is the example that I just mention. Ohh let’s make an app with push. And that’s that’s the answer to all of our problems. And let’s put a search and registration of customer and let’s do everything we need the perfect app and let’s do it and. Then they will want to do it, and that’s exactly the wrong way to do it. That’s exactly the wrong way to use the teaching the itching tea. The the engineers, the product managers and the product designers, they they can do much more if we are able to provide them with problems and give them the autonomy to come up with possible solutions.
Susan
Exactly. And I find that a lot of the C-Suite. Aren’t your end user. So they’re making all these decisions based on their personal views, but actually don’t think about who is actually going to be paying the money to use these products and services.
Joca
Exactly, exactly. They they think they are digitally experienced because they use, I don’t know, Instagram, LinkedIn and.
Susan
Got a few apps.
Joca
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But they are not they they won’t don’t understand all the dynamics that they go behind building all those apps, right. So they need to understand that there’s a whole dynamic behind the scenes that make those apps so successful. That’s that’s that’s the point.
Susan
Exactly. And I think that’s something that. You you can probably share with us some more insights that some businesses face when trying to do this transformation from the very traditional methods and then moving into more digital product LED methods. What are some examples and insights and challenges you can share? With us there.
Joca
Yeah, I I guess the the biggest one is this one that I just mentioned the the one that the the business people, they, they, they they come up with the solution and they say we need this app or we need this feature we need this dashboard we need this. Algorithm or we need this new AI, you know. Yep, yeah, yeah, the, the, the, the fashion trend. Ohh yes. Anyway and yeah, so so we’ve been using AI for for so long. But now with this.
Joca
An AI that is so closer to to everyone, it’s good in one sense because people can have a sense of the the the power. Behind AI. But it’s not so good in the other sense, because we’ve been using AI for so many years now. There is AI. I’ve been using AI in products since 2018, 2017, and we don’t grab about it because it’s just another way to build. Good products, good features, you know. But yeah, going back to your question, but I believe that the the big, the big issue is that the the business people, they tend to to think they know what we need to build that’s that’s the the the biggest and they don’t and they don’t take advantage of the big power that they have. Which is having a product. Team with product managers, product designers and engineers, especially engineers that are capable to come up with the best solutions, especially the engineers. The engineers are the ones who know exactly what we can build. They know that we have Gen AI that we have. All other technologies and they know how to apply those technologies to solve the most complex problems and not the the business people. So if the business people understand this and they present this team with problems to solve, they will, they will gain a lot.
Susan
And with that, do you think like the old waterfall from I’ve just used two different terms here, so waterfall? Doesn’t seem to be fitting now for digital transformation because you don’t want to do it in giant chunks.
Susan
You want to do it in smaller pieces, so have you found more agile type of Sprint mentalities better when you’re doing transformation projects?
Joca
Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s that’s the way to go. The, the the waterfall doesn’t make any sense at all. And and when you mention waterfall, it’s it’s a it brought me a a very interesting story because when you talk about digital transformation, we think that only makes sense to traditional companies. That companies? No, they already are. Transform it, right? No, no.
Susan
I don’t. I think some of them are stuck where they were and don’t. Want to change but.
Joca
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that’s that’s a good point. When I entered local web, local web is a tech company. It’s a big company here in Brazil. And I joined local web in 2005 and when I joined local web, we were completely in the waterfall model. When I entered there, we were building a product. And I had to write a PRG, a product requirement documents like this. This thing like 20 page 20 high.
Susan
Wow.
Joca
Hey and and and write it down and then deliver it to the engineering team and then the engineering team said to me that’s OK, leave it to us now. It’s our part, I’ll say, OK, that’s that’s fine. And then I checked with them from time to time and now it’s everything OK. It’s working fine and then they delivered the. Product and I checked the product was missing one of the features and I said maybe I missed it. I probably have forgotten to write it down, but I checked the PRD and it was there and I I asked them what happened. It is here but it’s not in the product. What happened? We were we were shorting time. We decided to cut it out.
Joca
Because we had to deliver in time, so even tech companies, they need this transformation as well. They need to change the way they build products. They need to be.
Joca
More agile and agile is not enough. Agile is. Is, is, is is important and we need to change and deliver things in smaller chunks. But it’s not enough to deliver things in smaller chunks. We need to deliver things that matter in smaller chunks and in agile. We only talk about the living things in the smaller chunks. We need to deliver things according to the customer, but we needed to deliver things that matter that regenerate. Foods, even when we talk about the Agile manifesto, the Agile Manifesto was written by software developers and they called it talking about better ways to deliver software. It’s tricky because they talk about better ways to deliver software. They don’t talk about.
Joca
Deliver better software. They talk about better ways to deliver software. It’s it’s tricky, the the the details. But when we talk about product management, we are talking about.
Joca
Out figuring out ways to deliver the best software, the software that deliver results results to whom to the company who owns the software and to the client, to the customer for whom the product will solve problems.
Susan
100% I think that last piece is sometimes lost because some people in the business like sales are just purely focused on. I just want to get the money for the business. Yeah. And then you’ve got other people who’ll be just focusing on the customer needs, whereas you need to be viewing both. Both are equally important.
Joca
Exactly, exactly. And and and this is totally true. So that some people only look to the profit to the, to the revenue and not the people only look to. I need to solve everything to the customer everything to the customer. The customer is the centre of our world and actually building product you have to have. Am I? In each of these objectives, you need to deliver software that reaches the objectives of the company who owns the product and to the customer for whom the product will solve the problem. That’s the main the main the main responsibility of the product manager and the product development team.
Susan
I’d love to know if you’ve seen any other fantastic examples out there of other transformations that have been successful or not successful that you’d like to share.
Joca
Yeah. Yeah. Well, the companies I I’ve worked for, obviously local web and lobbies and pass as well. I’d like to mention it is a transformation as well. I mentioned this in the book as. No, but I I’ve seen companies here in Brazil that I I really admire the way that they incorporate the technology in their business. There is one which is a huge bank here in Brazil called Itau. They are huge because they have more than 100,000 employees. They are really big. Yeah, they’re really big.
Joca
And they are doing a very good job in terms of making this transformation, this issue of transform. They have a path to go. They they they are in the middle of the road, but they are doing very good steps in the in the right direction. There is another a retailer, another retailer here, Brazil called Magalu is. Traditional retailer, but they were able to also make this digital transformation. They have a very strong presence online presence and. So yeah, those are good examples that we have here in was that I really like, I I even cite them in the in in the book I have, I have some case studies in the book. Those are two of the case studies that I cite in the book.
Susan
Fantastic. And what about or weakness or one that hasn’t had its right opportunity? Are there any general examples you provide? Not naming anyone but that you’ve seen that could have done it better?
Joca
Yeah, even in the book there is an example, a very interesting example of a company that.
Joca
They they decided to do something out of their heads. They they they were very firm on doing that and it went S it. It didn’t work out. It was an idea of building furniture. Because they were a furniture store and the store was the the furniture was to be mounted by the the customer in their homes. Yeah. And decided to provide some sort of. A a marketplace of builders to connect with the with the customers without the customers to build and they they realise it would be a fantastic idea to connect them both and they build the marketplace and it didn’t work out because the the customers wanted to have this hobby.
Joca
Of building the the. The furniture, they they like it to. Do that so. They they they needed to talk with the customers to understand what? What was the problem? Not taking out something out of their heads and decided, don’t. This is what the customer needs.
Susan
So they probably saw. That out of. 100 people, three people needed this service but thought it was a big idea that could be for more but didn’t. Actually. Realise 97% were happy.
Joca
Yeah, exactly. I like to do that. This is my hobby. I do that during the my weekends. I like to buy furniture there to mount them during my weekends. This is my. Hobby.
Susan
Ohh that that poor company. Good idea, but not quite. It’s kind of like a IKEA IKEA has it as an another service if you choose to and I don’t I don’t know how much they invest in that, but it seems like quite an easy little add-on that they’ve just done.
Joca
Yeah. Yeah.
Susan
That’s not necessarily too complicated for these systems. But that why I’m building it all from scratch. Ohh no, that those poor the poor team members. But I would love to know from you what excites you most about digital transformation?
Joca
Yeah. What? I what I’d like to see is. When when people start to see the results, when people start to see. Being able to solve the problems faster. Solve the problems in an easier way. You know having the impact with the customers having impact in the in the bottom line. So that’s that’s what I that’s what excites me to help people to to go through this this. It’s Beth.
Susan
I love that truck. I think that’s absolutely fantastic to be able to, to see it happening and realising it and knowing you’re helping everybody.
Joca
Yeah, yeah.
Susan
And your books will be helping a lot of. People as well to do that further.
Joca
Hopefully, hopefully I hope so.
Susan
Well, I have my final question. I’d love to ask everybody. You have been prepared. What brand? Any brand in the world best represents you and why?
Joca
I don’t know if best represents me, but I really, really like this brand and it’s not the usual one, probably from at least from what I heard from all the guests from you and this, The Beatles, I really, really, really love them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joca
And. What I like the most of them is how they they they are able to touch everybody to to, to help everybody somehow with their music. Even even now recently launching a music the the now and then probably you saw and it was amazing they are. People even like they they are 808183 and only two of them live and they were able to make a fantastic song that is beautiful. It’s. That’s that’s. I really like that. If I’m able to do that to to help people like half percent of what they are able to do with people, I I would be very happy.
Susan
That’s really sweet, and that goes back to everything that you share as well and wanting to help people along their path. So I think that that works really well. Thank you for sharing that one that is different. I love it. Well, I’m just going to do a quick round up, so thank you so much, Jocko. We have learned so much about digital transformation and the importance of culture and including that in. So the culture is there and sound. But don’t don’t go about it in giant chunks. Don’t pay exorbitant amount of money for consultants to come in and give you. A. Giant report. Look at it realistically. Look at it as small pieces and bring in if you don’t already have it. A specialist who’s already been through this and put them in the C-Suite team so that you have a leader there to be able to help everyone on this journey. If they’ve already got the skills, that means they can share their wins and their failures and make it more stronger for the new business to be able go through digital transformation and impact the culture in a right positive way. The small little chunks will make things easier so that it builds momentum overtime and is greater greater with success because you don’t want to go in and shock everyone either. But when you’re changing a culture is about partly changing a behaviour. How we do things to do things better and in a different way that makes sense. So call out and be honest. What is the bad behaviours that we need to change? What are the good ones that we need to actually build out on and do more of because they’ve been amazing. For us, it can help us transform even better and training. Ensure that people are trained in the right way to do things so you’re all on the same path together. It might mean bringing. Outside resources in to do this specialised training, but make sure you put the time and effort in there so everyone’s got the skills and tools to be able to do these changes together. I love the idea of when you’re doing digital transformation that you just don’t say this is what I want. Instead you go this is my. Guys in product in engineering and the designers please go off what it give me five ways, three ways wherever it might be, how we can solve this because I want you to do a solution scope come back to me at all the team and share what you think the best way forward is to solve this problem and why. Therefore, you’re going to get a better result, which would be faster, probably cheaper, but ultimately better for not just the customer but for the business, because it’s a win win situation. You want to do. But again. It’s all about that win win. You want to make sure that the business and the users are in this together and that it is in a fight between who’s making more money versus who’s gained the the new bits and pieces added to the product. Make sure it’s everyone working together as best as you can because you’re there to make a beautiful business that works for your customer with products. That they can use. Have I missed anything Joca?
Joca
No, it was perfect. I couldn’t say better.
Susan
Thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And don’t forget everyone else to grab a copy of digital transformation and culture. There are also three other books too that you might. Want to check out. On product management and all those other fantastic topics to help you along your way for not just digital transformation, but making sure that your product team are well equipped. And for everyone else, add more to marketing to your playlist. You don’t miss our fabulous guests. More to marketing.
