Susan: [00:00:00] More to marketing. Welcome to More to Marketing, a podcast on marketing product, and everything in between. I’m your host, Susan, and I have a very special guest from Macquarie Uni with me today to talk all things woke. I find this subject really interesting. I wanna learn more about it. I’ve been hearing so much in the media about this and I don’t know enough about it.
So I wanna introduce you to Dr. ABAs. He is one of the, for. Experts on Woke. He has literally in the last couple of weeks, published a book called Woke Brand from Selling Products to Fixing Society’s Deep Issues. And it is available on Amazon right now for you to purchase as well. But I really wanna hear from him about his story, why he’s come about with talking about work.
He’s a specialist in this area as well as cx, which is how I’ve gotten to know Dr. ABAs. But Dr. [00:01:00] ABAs, tell us a bit about you and what you do at the Univers. .
Dr Abas: Cool. Cool. Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for the coin introduction. Um, so, um, I have been doing this research on, uh, wokeness and prior to that, uh, brand purpose Purposefulness branding for a couple of years, for a few years.
And, but, uh, since 2018, perhaps after the, uh, dream Crazy Campaign by. and then, uh, followed up by Gilet, perhaps the infamous campaign of the Best Man can be. Um, I really, um, got interested in, in this topic and, uh, started reading the comments and the dynamics of, uh, uh, you know, responses to such, um, controversial, to some extent obvious.[00:02:00]
Uh, marketing campaigns In the past, we have had, uh, other approaches to, uh, social impact brands, uh, showing their, uh, commitment to social issues and, you know, uh, societal issues. And we call, call it, uh, corporate social responsibilities, csr. Uh, but there are a lot of, uh, you know, criticism to our c s. , which, uh, the main criticism has always been in the past five, 10 years, that, uh, uh, an organization can have a CSR department that will do all the good things, but the rest of the organization will continue doing all the bad things.
You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . So technically it is not a very authentic, uh, uh, practice if you collaborate with an NGO in Africa or you collaborate with, uh, Unico, for example, but. Uh, uh, [00:03:00] child labor is one of the pain points of your, uh, you know, production line, uh, that is not, uh, really authentic. Then brands start moving into purposefulness how to integrate these values, human values, social values in their practices, in their, uh, recruitment, in their trainings, in their products, to some extent in their ad campaign.
uh, avoiding desperate, uh, sales advertising messages and trying to kind of celebrate life, uh, to some extent. Uh, but I guess brands always are looking for ways to be noticed to kind of, uh, you know, get the attention of the audience and also be part of the, uh, boss be part of the, uh, contr, not contr be part of the conversation.
Mm-hmm. so they realized, Purposefulness is, uh, kind of cool, but, um, it is kind of, kind of a slow cooked back burner, uh, approach. Um, [00:04:00] it requires like 10 years work to be able to then claim that, uh, you have been practicing that long. Tele effect. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then they, they found the, um, wokeness identifying.
Uh, social talk issues that the society is talking about. We call it, uh, consumer tension areas, you know what I mean? Those type of conversations that, uh, that are trendy and mostly are built on, um, social movement such as Black Lives Matter movement or Me Too Movement. So that kind of, uh, higher purpose would give them relevance, you know what I mean, for today.
And then, Uh, started, uh, injecting those topics of woke topics in their campaigns. Uh, and then he picked up since 20, uh, 20 after the killing of George Floyd. Mm. And, uh, and then the dynamic on daily [00:05:00] basis is, um, changing. So, so technically, uh, one of the chapters of the book is that the journey from CSR to purposefulness to woke.
which is the most controversial on this end of the spectrum versus csr, which is super safe. Something, uh, for sugar coating, the, the things that organizations were doing.
Susan: Yes. No, it’s, it’s really interesting because. , um, a lot of businesses just jump straight into those trending topics, don’t they? Not understanding what it actually means to be part of that potential movement or what that group or organization is gonna feel about it.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and I, and I feel there’s probably a lot of organizations that aren’t doing it well. And really don’t understand the purpose of that investment that you need to do. Exactly, because cuz as you said, You can’t just have [00:06:00] one area of the organization doing it well, and the rest of it just being hidden behind the scenes, it needs to be that authentic piece where everyone’s
Dr Abas: involved.
Yes, a hundred percent. So, um, perhaps I can refer back to another chapter of the book. Uh, I hope it won’t sound as of I am as, as if I am promoting the book, uh, but, uh, um, walking Vision is something that brands really need to think. , what is, uh, your, uh, vision for participating in these, uh, uh, hot topics, right?
Mm-hmm. , uh, otherwise, uh, they will be accused of bandwagoning, you know what I mean? Jumping in the bandwagon and, uh, trying to kind of benefit from social currency, which is that con conversation, right? Um, so.
as you perfectly mentioned. Um, I always say companies and [00:07:00] brands have more than a hundred years of experience launching products, but they don’t even have two years of experience in the, in launching a social product. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. from a commercial brand. So, so we see these, uh, kind of, uh, not really well thought through kind of campaigns, uh, Uh, limited narrow view and parachuting into an issue, try to, and then of trying to offer a solution without even being able to identify the problem.
Uh, they try to offer a solution, so the same mindset that perhaps they are using for launching a product. Now, technically they’re following the same knowledge to launch, uh, in a social, uh, concept. So that is the biggest, uh, c.
Susan: I think, I think one of the things that I’ve seen a lot of, and I don’t think organizations necessarily are doing it very well, is Rainbow and everything.[00:08:00]
I, I’ve just decided that I’m going to get onto the rainbow bandwagon and rainbow everything that I have, wherever it’s my logo, my social media, whatever that might be, but not actually part. Yes. Yeah. Or, or not having that engagement within their own organization for that inclusiveness.
Dr Abas: Exactly. I think we, we call it also, uh, in general washing.
Mm-hmm. , it can be rainbow washing, it can be, uh, she washing, it can be walk washing, you know what I mean? Greenwashing. And, um, yeah. The, the idea is that, um, as you perfectly mentioned, you’re not practicing. You’re just virtual signaling. At best we are promising something. Mm-hmm. , uh, we, without looking at our history, whether we have done it in the past, sometimes brands have done quite the opposite.
You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . So for example, Gillette was trying to fight. Uh, again, it’s toxic masculinity, but people were [00:09:00] pointing at Julie that, Hey, have you checked your own previous ad campaigns, how we were promoting masculinity? Uh, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Susan: exactly. And I think that’s one thing that some of the brands out there, like Unilever Dove.
Um, they’ve actually been changing some of the views of, say, women stereotypically instead of just having those beautiful models, they were one of the very first, if not the first organization out there to put real people out there, um, in their underwear as part of, uh, in all shapes and sizes, colors, ages, you name it.
And they’re continuing to do that now. Mm-hmm. . So for, for me, that’s one of the brands that really is living and breathing that, um, we are gonna stand behind that all women are the. in, in the sense that we love every
Dr Abas: woman. Yeah, exactly. So that, that, uh, the Dove Real Beauty campaign is, uh, yes, A pure example of, uh, brand purpose, perhaps.
Mm-hmm. , uh, which is not, uh, divisive, which is applicable pretty much [00:10:00] to everyone. And it is about changing the mindset. It is not a controversial, uh, topic with people with different political ideologies kind of agreeing or disagree. . Um, so this is something that everyone, regardless of their background, much struggle with.
You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . So, so that, so that’s an, uh, excellent, uh, case, uh, with long lasting impact, right? Uh, what it exactly it takes, uh, time. Chobani perhaps is another great example of a brand that practices purposefulness by sharing the wealth of the company. By Vita, you know, employees, 10% goes to employees.
Uh, shared kind of economy business model, or they have incubator to kind of help, uh, asylum seekers, for example, or young entrepreneurs, you know what I mean? Uh, because the founder is, uh, positive causes. Yeah. The, the founder is an I immigrant from [00:11:00] Turkey. So there is a nice connection between the story of the business and the, the core purpose that they are focusing on.
It is not. , how tasty are our yogurts? You know what I mean? Yeah. It is about those higher purpose human, uh, values. And, um, these type of topics tend to, uh, have the support of people with different backgrounds. But as soon as you kind of, uh, uh, start work, you know, moving into controversial topics mm, you, it becomes super crucial to adopt a.
that is not. Um, cuz the challenge is sometimes, most of the time we, we want to support one group, but technically what we do, we are attacking another group.
Susan: Yep. Yeah. You gotta have that fine line of how, how can I support something but not alienate my other group that are also interested in my peral service.
Exactly.
Dr Abas: Yeah. [00:12:00] So, uh, lecturing the society or being, becoming moral lecturer, these are the things that have been really the pain points. Brands getting engaged in the work movement. Mm-hmm. , and that’s why we here get work, go broke. These are some of these.
Susan: Well, that’s actually a really good saying. Get, um, get work all broke.
Have you, have you come across, within part of your research, um, an example of woke done well where a brand has really been authentic and been able to bring in a society issue that’s brought in the right community, but also done the right thing by the business as well?
Dr Abas: Uh, that’s a very good question. I believe at this stage we don’t.
Such campaign. I can talk about the dream crazy campaign, but as you know, it was divisive. People putting their shoes on, setting their shoes on fire, removing the logo from their socks. So, um, maybe to [00:13:00] some people that was the best example of a work campaign, but it, to me, um, it was an under productive, uh, suboptimal outcome because, you know, uh, alienating.
uh, or hurting some people, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. , and at the same time, um, focusing heavily on achievement. If you listen to the, uh, the narrative, it says you need not only the best, but best of the best. So this perfection, um, uh, the, um, some communities, you know what I mean? And at the same time mm-hmm.
um, they being d. Um, has been really a, a main challenge. So, um, there are many examples that I have tried, but there I don’t think there is, uh, at this age. Uh, kind of a best example of doing it. Well, I think Adidas is trying, [00:14:00] um, Adida is learning a lot from what Nike is doing. They are, they’re trying. Um, and it is a progress.
It is not a one of that. You launch a campaign and everyone says it’s. , it is a, a process to ve back to Dr to remove the confusion and to boost the support. But so far, mostly brands are focusing on those who are supporting these moves rather than trying to have a dialogue with those who are kind of, for example, anti work.
Susan: And, and that’s one of the things that’s probably missing is that connection piece. Mm-hmm. to, to have that connection to actually understand the shifting movements that would happen as well. Cause as you said, it’s not just a one or one-off campaign. Things are gonna change and evolve over time depending on what matter it is that people are socially involved in.
Whether it is a black life matter, a Me too, or even a potential, um, like Ukrainian situation, for example. Yeah. Yeah. That, um, e everything is always [00:15:00] moving and changing. Absolutely. And that’s, and that’s where brands will need to have their fingers on the pulse as well to understand, do, do I hold that campaign now?
Mm. Um, they might have put millions of dollars into something, but it’s like, you know what, it’s not right. It’s gonna not have the right resonance that it, it should have. That’s hold back
Dr Abas: a hundred percent. A hundred percent. So a good example of, uh, that would be because it, sometimes the example that I have aren’t just a, a marketing campaign, but for example, a product.
that, uh, was pulled. Uh, for example, Nike was planning to launch a, a, a shoe line, uh, with, uh, Betsy Rose flag on the shoe. Uh, but they Oh, yes. , they discontinued. They said, we won’t be launching this. It was valued that I, I believe, 6 billion or maybe less than that. Wow. But, uh, after calling Kaepernick, the person who they featured and.
Champion in their dream crazy campaign after he [00:16:00] tweeted that, uh, this has, uh, racism connotations. Mm-hmm. , they stopped it. The recent one is Edda again. , uh, it seems, uh, s sneaker brands are really, you know, intones, uh, because perhaps because of the connection to n b. . So they, their,
Susan: their history definitely would, child labor would mean that they would want to Yes.
To, to be looking at not eradicating that past, but working towards building a, a, a better sustainable future and helping those communities.
Dr Abas: Exactly. Exactly. And, um, that they, uh, after, uh, Kanye West, you know, hate speech a few months. They added us, also announced that they, they won’t be selling, uh, Yeezy shoes anymore.
And, um, so, but whether this move was received well by the audience, I [00:17:00] don’t think so. It was a clear, circular positive because, um, those, uh, opposers said that, um, you know, why did you wait two? . Mm-hmm. , why did you wait? Uh, so that, that element of expectation is always there. Yeah. How fast are you in responding, whether that is a passive approach to just protect yourself or not.
Uh, but yeah, so brands are, that’s why, uh, that that’s another concept that, uh, I book, in the book, I refer to it as, uh, book sacrifice. Mm-hmm. . Uh, so is it just, you know, a, a, a statement you post on your Twitter account, or No. You would just do so. With impact, with, uh, return with substance. You know what I mean?
Uh, even for example, if someone says, I am going to hire 30% of my future employees will be from black communities. This is not sacrificed. This is your practice. This is your, you know what I mean? Obligations. It is a win-win. You know what, you need to [00:18:00] employ people. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh, but if they say, we won’t be selling these, uh, you know, shoes, for example, and it is valued at one.
Billion headache. Mm-hmm. , that is, uh, that has the concept of, um, sacrifice.
Susan: It doesn’t, I, I suppose part of what I’m hearing here is organizations have a couple of different ways to be involved in woke in the right way, and that could be addressing something they’re currently doing that is perceived as.
Correct in society whereas it’s child labor or not paying people right or not using the right materials. Whereas um, there’s also this future state of what do I develop, create and bring to market that can, um, El Elevate or help society in a way to solve a problem.
Dr Abas: Exactly. Exactly. So that is the, uh, major homework for brands to kind of think about [00:19:00] what.
um, based on their offerings, what type of products and service do they, they are, uh, investing in that can enable the society. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . Um, and, and that is still, uh, the missing part because mostly, uh, the focus has been on campaigns, on messaging rather than, you know, long term, uh, product.
that, uh, uh, if I buy it, it is not just a charitable task. I benefit from it as a customer. it is beneficial for someone else. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Susan: One of the things that I personally wanna see more of is the removal of plastic in the oceans and it’s being used for things. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So I have loved watching different types of products come to market.
Um, whether it’s shoes being made out of the plastic. I know some of the big brands are starting to do that and are releasing, um, like 80 or a hundred percent of it’s [00:20:00] made out of plastic. But one of the ones I thought was really beautiful. Is when I was having my twin boys, I was looking into all different products and one of the ones I could actually buy was, um, a lady was trying to get funding to make beautiful little bath toys out of plastic from the ocean, a hundred percent from the ocean.
Nice. Um, that was her Kickstarter campaign and I just thought, um, not, not as controversial as, um, some of the other topics, but still environmental, the plastic out there, how to solve that problem. Yeah, she was, she was trying to solve it as well as give something beautiful that you could then use.
Absolutely. And, and this product was absolutely gorgeous as well. Mm-hmm. So, and that’s something I personally would love to see more of, things that are more meaningful and purposeful that, um, don’t just help me, but help a greater cause to make me have that warm and fuzzy feeling.
Dr Abas: Exactly. You are, uh, spot on.
And at the same time, we still see unfortunate brands [00:21:00] that, uh, they also try to, um, kind of, uh, put profit. Mm. And um, then we have the greenwashing concept mean, and there was a recent a c report on this that are many brands who are making, you know, false claims or making empty promises. Yeah. So apparently most of these small businesses, uh, were startups that they, they’re doing more authentic work than some of these major, uh, brands.
Um, More like a, a sales tactic or strategy perhaps. So, uh, the damage is, uh, important to be considered by, by brands, obviously, when they’re making, uh, these decisions. .
Susan: Definitely, definitely. And, and again, to your point, it comes down to the auth, the authenticity of everything as well. You’ve gotta make sure that you, you [00:22:00] live and breathe what you say you’re going to do, and it resonates through the whole organization.
And some of tho those big pitfalls that you’ve identified as well and shared is that, People are jumping onto topics, not understanding or researching and not realizing this is long term. It’s not a short term strategy. Yeah. Ju, going into these topics, which is why people need to read your book, is to understand that this is long term, this is strategy, this is five, 10 year planning to make sure it’s done right.
And it’s in the core of everything you do because you’ve gotta bring it into your values and your mission statements as
Dr Abas: well. Absolutely. Yes. Couldn’t agree more. The point that it is, if a brand wants to show real commitment mm-hmm. , uh, which I personally believe they should, and they can. Uh, so if there are two camps of thoughts that one says brands should really, uh, focus on their products and they shouldn’t be worried about these issues [00:23:00] versus another group that say, I would say brands need to, uh, play their role.
I. I think I applied to the group that thinks brands have a responsibility to, uh, shift the investment towards, you know, these topics. So personally, if my next iPhone, uh, is going to go from three cameras at the back of that smartphone to four, I would prefer that investment to go to something else. I’m happy with three cameras in my smart, you know what I mean?
Yes. Incremental, uh, improvements in products with no impact. Um, that investment should go to something else. So, mm-hmm. , I think, uh, we need to be slightly patient with brands. Uh, they’re taking baby steps and we should see this as a process, as a long-term commitment. And of course, and they have made many mistakes, but are [00:24:00] they learning from those mistakes?
And are they kind of, uh, improving it? . If yes, there is great value back to the community and everyone will be benefit. You know what I mean? Um, so yeah, I think, uh, a major commitment by brand is to see this as, to have a vision and see this as a long-term planning, doing different things, not just a campaign.
Yes. All the things that support each other and offers this ecosystem and the master plan of. Social responsibility.
Susan: Exactly. And extending that out to involve all of their team members. Yeah. So that all their organization lives and breathes it. Cause I think that makes a huge difference when you have that purpose as well as an employee.
Dr Abas: A hundred percent. Uh, equally important when, uh, when you communicate, uh, purpose in your messaging that you are purposeful. But inside the organization, people. I don’t [00:25:00] think so. You know, ? Mm-hmm. , uh, you know what I mean? So that internal purposefulness, uh, inclusion and genuine diversity, not tick box, box ticking approach.
You know what I mean? Uh, exactly. Yeah. But, uh, these are the things that we should learn rather than being cynical and, um, being kind of, uh, feeling let down. You know what I mean? We need. , um, you know, just try to learn from these practices and the response.
Susan: Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing all this fabulous wisdom and learnings.
I’ve learned so much. Um, I really do appreciate your time. Um, as you know, I’ve got a final question for you. Um, now if you could be any brand at all that represents yourself, what would it be? And. .
Dr Abas: That’s a very interesting, um, question. Um, I can be [00:26:00] more than one. Can be more than one. Yeah. Uh, I need to really, uh, think, to be honest there.
Um, there are some typical examples like, I dunno, . It’s interesting. I wanted to say Nike, but I’m not a Nike customer as much myself, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. . But I like what they are doing so that there are connections in different levels, connections that makes sense of product and connection in terms of the brand image and their mindset.
I guess I would go with Ben and Jerrys, the ice cream. Yu . What Flavor? . Yeah, so the, they have very interesting flavors, diversity flavor. I love it. I love it. , they, they, they are playing a very interesting, uh, game and, uh, they seem to be very genuine in what they do sometimes. They have also done some, some controversial, you know, [00:27:00] things like, uh, not selling ice cream in occupied, uh, Palestinian Territories, which I, I don’t think that was the best move, but, , they, they seem to be focusing on a number of different, um, issues.
Mm-hmm. and, uh, it is well beyond, um, ice cream. Uh, so I think, yeah. Uh, Beninger is not because of the functional product that the taste of the ice cream, but because of that symbolic and abstract meaning that they communicate. Yep. Maybe I would go with them.
Susan: Fantastic. Thank you. I, I love that answer. Now you’re wanting me to go get some ice cream
Dr Abas: That’s, uh, it is, uh, 30 degrees something here, I guess, , uh, in Sydney, so,
Susan: exactly, exactly. Uh, um, is there anything finally you’d like to just, um, touch on about Warism, um, just before I wrap up?
Dr Abas: Uh, thank you so much again for the chat. . [00:28:00] I think that was, um, an interesting conversation at my end. I learned a lot too.
And, um, you had some very interesting questions and, um, I think, um, as I said, perhaps my message in this book and in my research is to, to encourage everyone, uh, to be patient, uh, with brands because, uh, otherwise if, if brands back flip to, to. Doing what they were doing for the past century, it is a missed, uh, opportunity.
You know what I mean? We should hold them accountable for what they are promising. Uh, but uh, we should still be very hopeful cuz of their power. They can be the agent of change.
Susan: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Dr. Aba. I really appreciate this. Now everybody, his book is available. It’s just been out only for two weeks now.
It’s available on Amazon work brand from selling products to fixing society’s deep issues. [00:29:00] Get your copy now. It is a fantastic read. Thank you again so much, Dr. Aas. I’ve appreciated your time. Uh, thank you everyone for listening to this podcast on more marketing. And don’t forget to click. I wanna listen to more so you can hear some more fabulous podcasts in the future.
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